Comments on: MJ vs. Kobe

By: H2theOH

H2theOH — Sun, 02 Aug 2009 15:03:24 +0000

*correction:
Oh, and I’d like to add to that, for people who talk about kobe’s “prolific” scoring. He has torched insignificant teams during the regular season for his highest totals, and thats fine and dandy, but for such a great scorer two things… Kobe’s regular season average has routinely been higher than his playoff average for his career. and two, he has only average more than 30 points a game twice. MJ averaged more than 30 points a game for nearly a decade (8 seasons), and he significantly improved his scoring output in the playoffs. I really don’t know why this is even a discussion.

By: H2theOH

H2theOH — Sun, 02 Aug 2009 15:02:08 +0000

Oh, and I’d like to add to that, for people who talk about kobe’s “prolific” scoring. He has torched insignificant teams during the regular season for his highest totals, and thats fine and dandy, but for such a great scorer two things… Kobe’s regular season average has routinely been higher than his playoff average for his career. and two, he has only average more than 30 points a game twice. MJ averaged more than 30 points a game for nearly a decade (seasons), and he significantly improved his scoring output in the playoffs. I really don’t know why this is even a discussion.

By: H2theOH

H2theOH — Sun, 02 Aug 2009 14:49:55 +0000

a title does not make a person close the gap in greatness, sorry. When the lakers lost vs. the pistons a few years back, it was kobe wanting to be the man that cost them that title, even though the pistons had no answer for shaq, kobe, though he was being shut down by tayshawn prince, couldn’t bare to let shaq win another finals mvp. last year when the lakers lost in beantown, I recall kobe saying after the san antonio series that he could turn it on whenever he wanted to…. yet he complained that boston threw the kitchen sink at him. If you want to talk numbers, kobe’s best year still does not compare to michaels best year, where he won defensive player of the year, a scoring title, the the steals title, mvp of the all star game, and mvp of the league, all in in 1987. Thats all in one season folks. you want to talk about the gap closing?

Michael Kobe
Finals: 6 4
Finals mvp: 6 1
league mvp: 5 1
Scoring titles: 10 2

And I can go on and on. To say that the gap is closing is ludicrous. Kobe is a special talent, but to compare him to mj is ridiculous. In kobe’s best year, the year he averaged 35.4 a game, he didn’t garner another accolade beside his scoring title. the year Michael averaged 37.1, again, he got the scoring title, steals title, regular season mvp, all star mvp, and the defensive player of the year award (some people forget he was third in the league in blocks that year, besides leading in steals). This was all the while torching the league on a nightly basis, during a time in the nba where a foul was really a foul, not what today would be called a flagrant one or two. To compare these two is just asinine. Titles alone do not make a player great, because if that was the case, players like robert horry and steve kerr would be in the conversation as some of the greatest of all time, and they aren’t.

By: satrapes

satrapes — Sat, 11 Jul 2009 01:06:30 +0000

Well a role player is a role player and a sidekick is a sidekick. Robin is Batman’s sidekick Comissioner Gordon is a role player. If you don’t like the term sidekick how is playing second fiddle does that suit you better. Pippen was Jordan’s sidekick he was a very good sidekick good enough to be in the top 50. When Kareem played with Magic he was his sidekick
because you expect the top dog to take the responsibility. When the Lakers would lose it would be Magic’s fault. With the Celtics it was Bird the guy on the electric pressure chair not McHale. When the Bulls would lose they would look to Jordan not Scottie. When the game is on the line it is like that dreadful cliche when the going gets tough the tough get going. Obviously basketball is a team sport no one can win anything on his own. The gap has closed a little bit even since Kobe won a championship being the best player on his team. But a small fraction won’t make the cut at least yet. For the time being they are not even comparable.

By: AK Balla

AK Balla — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 23:19:45 +0000

satrapes…after reading your post, I saw so much that I wanted to comment on…but will settle for 2 issues only right now.

1st…PIPPEN. I could not disagree more strenuously. Yes, coming in to the NBA he was an unknown. Yes, it took him a couple years to find his way. After that though, a very valid case can be made for him being the second best player in the league only behind Jordan.Pipp could do it all. The only reason he wasn’t a 25PPG scorer was because he was the set up man for MJ and others. I am not saying he WAS the next best (Hakeem IMO) but an argument can be made on his behalf. Pippen was a more than adequate scorer, great rebounder for a SF, a strong clutch player, high IQ,the man that ran the Bulls offense, and the best defender in the league…yes even over Jordan. He had a complete all around game. Even when Jordan was there, it was Pippen who often called the plays and even would over-ride Phil at times due to his keen sense of how the game was going and what the Bulls needed. He was a leader on and off the floor…even more than Jordan, who many dispised behind closed doors for his arrogance and biting criticism. Scottie directed the Bulls defense and offense…NOT MJ!!! Phil Jackson is on record as saying so also. Phil stated the Bulls success to be greatly due to Pippens ability to take away one half of the court thus clogging up the other teams options and creating poor spacing, and also Pipp’s ability to hound the opposing PG all the way up the court and take off 8-10 seconds before even getting into their offensive sets. Pippen always drew the other teams best player. Pippen was the reason Magic Johnson was nutralized in the Bulls first championship. He put the cuffs on Drexler when many were saying Clyde was as good as MJ. He dominated Gary Payton also…Shawn Kemp was the only reason that series wasn’t a sweep or 5 games at most. He stiffled the Jazz because he pushed Stockton out so far and making it hard to get the ball to Malone He could guard any player except the really big PF’s and C’s. He could grab a rebound…and be at the other teams rim faster than anyone with his long strides and athleticism. He did what great players do…made the game easier for those less talented

But this is the real kicker…and something even you cannot deny………..

The year after Jordan retired, he took a Bulls team by himself, to within one EXTREMELY SHITTY CALL VS THE KNICKS, of being back in the finals. We all know it was a bunk call that cost them the series vs NY. Before the season, I remember people wondering if the Bulls would even make an 8th seed w/out MJ. Pipp had them less than 5 seconds from another trip to the finals

That Bulls team had no MJ and still could have easily won a title. I never saw MJ lead the Bulls that far without Pippen although he wasn’t given the chance either. Pipp was hands down the leagues MVP that year and got robbed. At least Hakeem had Drexler. Scottie had guys like Randy Brown…BJ Armstrong…Bill Wennington…and Pete ??? (dude that replaced MJ). Tony K was the only other decent player and he was no all-star at all. If not for MJ and Pipp…Kucoc would have been a bumb…just like we saw once he went to the Bucks. That team had shit for talent and Pipp almost got them all the way….HUGE ACCOMPLISHMENT IN MY BOOK!!!!

Even later in his career, Phil desperately wanted him in LA, and he led a totally mismatched Portland team to within a decent 4th quarter of beating the Lakers and playing for another title.

Houston acquired him because they thought he was the difference maker. Unfortunately they also had Barkley’s lazy ass who wouldn’t stop with the Big Mac’s or play a lick of defense.

simply put Pippen was a STUD and a Champion

2nd….your take on Bryant winning 3 title’s as a “side kick” is ridiculous. Robert Horry was a side kick…brian Shaw a side kick…Derek Fisher a side kick. Ron Harper…. Rick Fox a side kick. Kobe was a VITAL PART. He routinely put up huge numbers and was a complete nightmare for the Spurs. Kobe and Shaq complemented one another…with out Kobe…the defense would have sagged even more on Shaq and forced the previously listed players to beat them. I love them all, but not one of them put fear into the other team. I am sure the Spurs would have taken their chances against LA with Harper instead of Bryant…those guys are just journeyman types carving out career’s, many playing with as many as 4-5 teams in their career. With out Shaq…Kobe doesn’t get those free alleys to the rim and gets doubled much more often. They needed one another or no rings for either one. You think Shaq was gonna win one in Miami w/out Wade!!! LMFAO

By your logic, Magic must have been a “side kick” to Kareem or vice versa depending on how you view it. Wilt a “side kick” to West and Baylor…..McHale a “side kick” to Bird. Dr.J a “side kick” to Moses Malone…..Duncan a side kick to Robinson….see what I mean. Give credit where it is due…none of these guys were side kicks as you say. These were some of the very best players ever and made the top 50 list. You look ignorant for even coining the term side kick and applying it to one of the best players the world has ever seen in Bryant.

A side kick is a role player not a superstar!!! Bryant is a super star

Still, MJ was a better player to me, but like I said before…the gap is closing…Kobe just isn’t the media darling MJ was and so many have bought into it. It’ isn’t Bryants fault he has the same size,style,athleticism,or the comparison’s to Jordan. It’s the image created by the media.

By: Steve

Steve — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 20:04:19 +0000

Micheal Jordan is the best player in NBA history. Kobe bryant is the second best 2 guard in NBA history. Are there any questions? Just ask yourself which of the two didn’t have any weaknesses to his game. I think the answer is quite clear. I need to comment on a few redundant statments that I’ve been hearing over the past several emails…

#1. There are other equally important aspects of the game other than offense and scoring. All I’ve been hearing about is points, rebounds and assists when these categories really aren’t what makes these two players stand out amongst the greatest who ever played. To prove my point, just check out the stats that LeBron is putting up and what Oscar Robertson put up throughout his career. Those two guys are at the top of the game when it comes to producing in those 3 categories. The reason why we’re discussing M.J. and Kobe rather than those players is because of the all around game that these guys have as well. With that being said, we should be talking about defense and the transitional game and not leave those valid points out of the equasion. M.J. ruled both of those categories and was just as dominant there as he was on offense. That’s what made him the greatest player ever. He never took a night off and he never slacked anywhere on the court. Compare the numbers of steals and blocked shots over M.J.’s career to what Kobe has produced and it’s not even close. M.J. was by far the best all around player. Even when you take Kobe’s number one attribute which is scoring and compare it to M.J.’s career accomplishments, he doesn’t measure up there either. This is not to mention that M.J. was a better rebounder and put up more assists as well. There’s no doubt that Kobe is a great player but he just doesn’t measure up to M.J. and when people say that he is as good or even better than M.J. just blows my mind! They need to go back and check the stats.

#2. I’m really tired of hearing about Scottie Pippen. When he joined the league he was vitually an unknown. Sure, he has some athletic ability but he wasn’t a good shooter at all (His only shot was a bank shot off the glass) and he was very inconsistant in his all around play. Michael knew that in order to win championships that he would have to have a second man and with Scotties overall potential, Michael invested in him. He spent a great deal of time with Pippen in practice teaching him little inside moves, he taught him how to play aggressive defense and he even coached him when he went to the slam dunk competition. Michael Jordan made Scottie Pippen, not the other way around. He took an average player with a little bit better than average athelicism and made a star out of him. You put Scottie Pippen on an average NBA team and without M.J. coaching him and you probably never would have heard much about Scottie Pippen at all. That’s about as plain and simple as I can make it and that situation was no where near in comparison to the situation that Kobe had with Shaq. Kobe didn’t make Shaq. In fact Kobe has never invested that kind of time into a teammate period. Kobe got to play with one of the most dominant centers in NBA history AND in his prime. That’s not even in the same ballpark as what Jordan had to deal with. I’m tired of that argument being brought up. It’s ridiculous.

#3. The other thing I’m tired of hearing is how the defenses are tougher today by these Kobe fans. I think they need to put the crack pipe down! Do they forget that two of the greatest defensive teams ever (The late 80’s Pistons and the early 90’s Knicks) played in M.J.’s era? Do they forget about how handchecking and very rough physical play was tollerated by the league at that time? M.J. still tore the league apart even though they were punishing him nightly! Neither Kobe or LeBron has ever had to face the kind of physical abuse or the calliber of teams that Air Jordan did. The differences in the league rules today would be equivelant to the boxing commission telling Muhammad Ali that he can still dance around the ring and Joe frazier that he can still bob and weave but they’re not allowed to punch each other! That’s exactly what they did to the game of basketball. They took the punch out of the fight so what you have now is a mere image of what the sport used to be. I guarantee you that if Kobe and LeBron had to deal with teams that elbowed you, tripped you, kneed you, pulled on your jersey, ganged up on you, hard fouled you, etc. as a part of their strategy to stop you, their numbers would be very different! M.J. was STILL unstoppable. Can you imagine what numbers he’d be putting up in a league that couldn’t touch him?

And one last point I have to make is that Kobe just led his team to a championship for the first time in his career. How long has he been in the league? He only has to do it 5 more times to catch M.J.! He was a second man on the 3 other championship teams that he was a part of where Shaq was making all of the accomplishments and getting the awards. Kobe has even a longer way to go to catch Air Jordan in team accomplishments than he has in individual accomplishments. It may be said and done at the conclusion of Kobe’s career that he has matched M.J. in several categories and even surpassed him but M.J. didn’t join the league at 17, he missed three years as a young man/prime (1986, 1994 & 1995) and then he retired at 35 when he could have kept playing the next few years rather than coming back as a Wizard as an old man and lowering his career stats! If you added all of those years that he could have played to his overall resume, he would have put up numbers that probably never would have been touched!

By: satrapes

satrapes — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 14:41:41 +0000

And finally to cap this off
Jordan when he was on the bad Bulls teams, put better numbers than Kobe on the bad Lakers teams.
The bad Lakers teams weren’t 4 years they were actually 2 and a half years. A year with Caron Butler, Lamar Odom and a decent Chucky Atkins isn’t a bad team.
Also Jordan was head and shoulders above his contemporaries in all positions whilst the same can’t be said about Kobe unless you want to compare him with the other SG, and this can be further evidenced from his regular season MVP trophies.
And now to make a school yard argument for you to understand. Jordan in his last years was clearly a far more valuable player than a skinny O’neal. Fat O’neal when he was in the same team with Kobe, was clearly a more valuable player. So Jordan pwns Bryant.
Also as for the analogy about me working in a firm which i forgot to address. I am not a professional athlete (or you could say since the advent of television an entertainer) making 30 million dollars per year(oops now you know i am not Lebron) having millions of fans idolizing me so i do not have the same pressure to push my own boundaries to satisfy the public(because this is what stars do, and of those stars others just shine brighter).
Also about the skills that he puts to use every other game or so. He puts them to use almost every game the difference being he brings them to a great level and sometimes to a good level. The analogy of great to good in Michaels career was better than Kobe’s.
Also dating as far back as 1980 besides the Pistons teams in order to win a championship you need a dominant PF or C. The Bulls with the greatest player ever managed to win having as their stars the SG and SF something that speaks volumes of their grandieur because they carved a niche in basketball history for themselves.
Plus your whole line of thought is to keep making excuses for the guy and somehow trying to say that i argued his place among the other SGs of the league which i didn’t. I just said that he is No. 2 and that it is sacreligious to compare him to the greatest.

By: satrapes

satrapes — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 01:03:53 +0000

Ahh and i almost forgot. For the record segmenting my post and replying dumbassedly to everything i say doesn’t mean you refuted with factual points it rather implies that you are trying to project your views onto mines.

By: satrapes

satrapes — Fri, 10 Jul 2009 00:55:09 +0000

First of all stop writing 11 posts because i have to get 11 emails one will just do it.
Well to say the least Pippen is a great player but he sure as hell is not O’neal.
And of course Jordan was always better than Pippen and Rodman while Kobe can be argued if he was better than Shaq during their coexistence mind you even a fat Shaq.
Also in MJs first years he sure as hell didn’t have any HOF players around him but he could do better than Kobe
“Try 1 title at 29 years old!!!! Look it up!!!”
When a guy is born in February of 1963 and he gets his 3rd championship in 1993 i think that it means that he won 3 when he was 30 years old and 3 or 4 months. Perhaps this is too difficult for you to understand and i wonder who should look up what around here.
Dennis Rodman was not among the top 50 players and really you should double check before speaking again.
What i am saying is that when he got to the finals he got the MVP 6 times, Kobe went to the Finals 6 times twice he lost and he got 1 MVP. Not that difficult to grasp.
Well he might have got many FGA but judging by his career percentage they were better shots. Better basketball players choose better shots that’s why they shoot better over a whole career.
As for the argument that he passes more now even a blind man can see it. And apparently you are the blind man everyone keeps referring to. I have one objection on how much did it take for him to figure it out that trusting your teammates is going to help the team. Trust is a two way street in basketball. And of course i forget the famous Game 7 in Phoenix (Phoenix for crying out loud – What the hell was he thinking)(But based on your course of arguments this will spiral out of control)
What you fail to understand is that Kobe’s FG% is in line with the other SGs in the NBA not the best SG that ever played. That is good enough for 2nd best and being clearly 2nd best doesn’t mean you can compare with the best. You also fail to realise time and time again that it was a genious decision of MJ not to take 3s. The guy had the green light to do whatever he wanted shoot 3s shoot even from the half court no one would say anything to him and it is not like he couldn’t shoot 34% for his career yet he chose to play smarter. (And please don’t resort to the the line was shorter argument i know it was)
Of course true defense isn’t about swatting shots on the break but it shows determination for D it shows character which of course adds to his greatness.
Also you make the point that Jordan had Pippen in 88-89 whereas to be exact he had Pippen and Grant in their second years with not very spectacular numbers.(But i have to concede that they still were a better supporting cast than Odom and Parker).
Also again you are trying to make something out of nothing and have me say that KB wasn’t the man in the last championship i have eyes man. But you can’t deny that Shaq was probably was going to get his rings with or without Kobe (even though you seem to be leaning automatically to the second) and of course he played second fiddle to O’neal therefore meaning that he wasn’t the man back in the day. The way i see it Kobe won 3 rings as a pup and one as a man. MJ won 6 rings as a man.
The reason for me not talking about KG and Duncan is because you judge the PF and C with other criterions and i wouldn’t want to go there. I am not changing a story to my liking it is just that this story is getting boring and i wouldn’t like to extend it. But lets just say you don’t expect a 30 8 and 8 from KG.
The reason i came to this conclusion is this, Olajuwon was an excellent post player routinely victimizing even the better bigs of his generation. If it was so easy to score on the post as you said he should have had something amazing for PPG that’s why. i know i exaggerrate a bit just for fun.
“At every one of your remarks, I gave you factual points to refute them.”
Oh yeah have fun with Dennis Rodman too he sure as hell will be pleased when he learns that he got in the 50 top players of the NBA and it is a shame it is only a wiki link away to check. Not that he wasn’t a great player it is just that you routinely make mistakes.

“Before passing judgement here…lets see what Kobe does for an encore next year. He just learned how to win it also being in the Alpha Male role. Time will tell!!”
Is there an echo here?

By: AK Balla

AK Balla — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 22:09:38 +0000

satrapes…”“As for Jordan and the head honcho remark”
Of course they had valuable roles but everybody knew who the Man was.
And last but not least MJ once he got going he never looked back. Once he learned what it takes to win a championship he did it every year.(This is Kobe’s measuring stick right now)
And as for you kissing my ass i don’t see that happening. You talk so much shit my ass would be offended.”

I guess you somehow believe everyone doesn’t know who the man is now on the Lakers. It must be Odom or Bynum…surely not Bryant!!! LOL

Before passing judgement here…lets see what Kobe does for an encore next year. He just learned how to win it also being in the Alpha Male role. Time will tell!!

As for the shit talking you accuse me all I can say is the truth hurts. At every one of your remarks, I gave you factual points to refute them.If you go back and read your posts….they are all laced with “Bryant is stupid, ego, etc etc etc etc. These are YOUR OPINIONS….NOT….irrefutable knowledge.

Again…like I said earlier…I agree Jordan to be superior to Bryant for now. When Kobe is finished, I may still see it that way. But Kobe has the chance to surpass Jordan and I won’t be too surprised if he does.

You seemed to want to turn this into a hate collumn about Bryant, and not a discussion as to why you think Jordan the better player.

By: AK Balla

AK Balla — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 21:59:16 +0000

satrapes….”The way you have it with the low block one of the best ever post players we have ever seen Olajuwon should have scored somewhere north
of 50 points per game in a season.”

How did you come to this conclusion???? Look at the original posts again…you are losing your focus on the issue before you even write about it!!!!!

By: AK Balla

AK Balla — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 21:56:18 +0000

satrapes….”As for KG and Duncan they are different positions and a whole other story. The same goes
for Oscar because he played in a totally different era.
What i am trying to say is we all know MJ and Kobe are great players but compare the seasons where they both kicked it into overdrive
and they don’t even compare. (Not that this is a valid way to compare the 2 players)”

You need to go back and read your post over then read my repsonse. You are now going against exactly what you claimed in the first place. Just changing your story to your liking!!!

By: AK Balla

AK Balla — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 21:52:52 +0000

satrapes…”As for the season with the 81 point game. His season was about scoring not dominating. The difference between a 32.5 8 and 8 and a
35 5.3 and 4.5 is that in the former you are the baddest mother$#@@#$ on the block on the latter you are an amazing scorer who is good
in rebounding and assists( but not that special)never mind the fact that Jordan has 54% while Kobe has 45%. That is 9%
difference.

If an 81pt game isn’t dominating then we read from different dictionaries!!!!

Don’t try to tell me Bryant hasn’t been the baddest mother ^^^^^^ on the block for some time now. Yes, MJ grabbed a few more boards and dished a few more dimes….but Kobe scored more and also once again I point out he did this on a much LESS TALENTED TEAM than Jordan had.

The 9% is a big difference, but in Bryants defense a little……better players help you make easier plays. MJ would be the first to tell you that w/out Pippen, his stats weren’t nearly as dominant. Bryant had no “Pippen” type player with him…he was truly solo…so that makes him even more dominant!!!!!

By: AK Balla

AK Balla — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 21:44:38 +0000

satrapes….”It ain’t just about the assists, it is about steals and blocks and all the little things. Ask me this how many times have you seen Kobe run
down the court to swat a shot (i’ll give you that this has improved the last years but through out his career not so great),
and how many times have you seen him complain to the referee after getting a little contact instead of hauling
his ass back.”

Like i said from the get go…I think Jordan is better also, but what i have shown you is your logic for your criticism of Bryant is more a personal dislike rather than objective.

I agree Jordan has more assists….but remeber this Bryant played off of Shaq his first 7 years, when the offense wasn’t ran through him all the time. Then he had a 4 year period where he had no teammates to convert his passes. It has only been the last 2 years where he finally got some help and look what he has done…did he not lead the Lakers and the entire finals in assists on their way to a title?

Jordan had the ball all the time and also had better players around him for a longer majority of his career. Not to take away from MJ, but he never had to play off another guy and that directly effects your stats.

As for blocks and steals…I agree all the way with you. That is one reason why I view Jordan as better. Bryant is a VERY good defender…..Jordan was just simply even better.

true defense isn’t about running a guy down to block his shot…these are plays people like on ESPN.

Jordan berated referree’s just as much if not more than Bryant for “missed calls”. it’s just that Bryant haters cling to it to make him out to be a cry babay where Jordan was never scrutinized the way Kobe is.

By: AK Balla

AK Balla — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 21:33:11 +0000

satrapes….”And the reason why he shoots so bad sometimes
is the fact that he takes so many jumpers and treys which he is not so good at.”

For the shooting guard position, is Bryant’s FG% not right in line with the other SG’s in the NBA??? Of course it is!!! And remember…the other SG’s in the NBA are not the focal point of the offense…they benifit from having people create for them, while Bryant has to create for himself and his teammates. When the defense is that attracted you…45% isn’t that bad at all. All it means is 5 more made shots out of 100 to get to 50%. So if a Bryant and Joedan shoot 20 times per game for 5 games…all Jordan did was make 1 extra shot per game. A difference..YES..but not nearly what you make it out to be.

Bryant is not an elite 3pt shooter, but compare him to the league average and he is right in line. Jordan really never had the 3pt game Bryant does…or the range either. Bryant routinely makes 30′ and more attempts throughout the season