The United States led by only one point after the first quarter, but continued their trend of breaking games open in the second period. Team USA outscored Australia by eleven in the second quarter, capped by a last second three-pointer from Deron Williams to close the half. Williams missed his first three three-point attempts, but connected on his fourth to stretch Team USA’s lead from nine to twelve points heading into the third quarter.
Kobe Bryant found his offensive rhythm for the first time in these Olympics as he led the United States with 25 points on 10-of-16 from the field and 4-of- 7 from the three-point line. Bryant cut down the ill-advised shot attempts that had marred many of Team USA’s previous games. Kobe scored nine points in the first four and half minutes of the third quarter to help stretch Team USA’s lead from twelve to twenty-six points. LeBron James scored 16 points on 7-of-12 from the field, grabbed a game-high 9 rebounds, dished out 3 assists, and had another game-high four steals.
Team USA entered the contest forcing an average of 22.6 turnovers a game, but Australia ran their Princeton style offense with precision, coughing the ball up only 11 times.
But as has been their custom in these Olympics, the United States found an advantage elsewhere. Team USA dominated the glass against Australia. The United States outrebounded Australia 57-28, including 18 offensive rebounds.
It’s hard to imagine anyone beating the United States. With each passing game, they seem to shore up their perceived weaknesses from the previous contest. When they’ve failed to connect from long-distance, they’ve forced turnovers to get out in transition. When they’ve failed to force turnovers, they’ve outrebounded their opponents, hit the long ball, and valued possessions. Zone them up, and they’ll make you pay from beyond the arc. Play them man-to-man, and you have no chance of matching up with their athleticism. Press them, and Chris Paul will dart through defenders and find his teammates for open looks.
Up next for Team USA is a long awaited rematch with 2004 Olympic champion Argentina.
Australia insisted that that they weren’t afraid of the United States. That’s not even a question with the Argentinians. Argentina plays just like their leader — Manu Ginobili — fearless. As talented as Greece, Spain, and Australia have been, none of those teams possess even one player that could compete for a spot on the United States roster. Pau Gasol and Andrew Bogut are good. But they aren’t that good.
Manu Ginobili is great. Ginobili is the only player ever to win a Euroleague title, an NBA championship, and an Olympic gold medal. Ginobili doesn’t play with his athleticism, he plays with his mind and his heart. Both of those amazing attributes will be on display against the United States. Ginobili won’t come into Friday’s game believing he belongs on the same court as the greatest players in the world, he’ll come in believing he can dominate.
Kobe Bryant watched the 2004 Olympics. And he witnessed Ginobili’s 29-point masterpiece in Argentina’s semifinal upset of the United States.
After watching the 04′ Olympics, Bryant “was sick and tired of hearing about their (European) guard play. I wanted to come in and say, ‘You know what, I don’t have to score 30-some points and do dunks, all that stuff, I want to come in and lock some people up.’ “
Bryant will get his chance to lock up what may be the greatest European guard of all-time and certainly one of the greatest winners in basketball history on Friday.
With Team USA’s talent and depth, it may not matter whether Bryant succeeds or not. But it will be fun to watch.
August 20th, 2008 at 5:54 pm
Kobe’s quote is awesome and Team Domination will exterminate Manu.
August 20th, 2008 at 7:53 pm
Nice job, Hoff.
One of the things I’m enjoying about this Olympics is how USA is getting a chance to redeem themselves with everyone who thinks they can have a piece of them this year.
For example, USA gets Argentina next, instead of another rematch with Greece who they’ve already humbled this year.
By the way, unless I missed when they allowed Argentina into the European Union, Ginobli is not even on the bottom of the list of “the greatest European guard of all-time.” :-)
August 20th, 2008 at 8:02 pm
Basketballogy,
You have a point.
Ginobili obviously plays for the Argentinian team.
But the majority of his pre-NBA professional career took place in the Euroleague. It was there that he won two MVP’s, a Euroleague championship, and Finals MVP.
His game is Euro-influenced. And not that this really matters, but he’s also of Italian descent.
So I think it’s fair to label Ginobili a European player, but I can see why you disagree.
August 20th, 2008 at 8:07 pm
Mac G,
I liked that comment too. I thought about throwing this one in there:
“We want to play the best. We want to play the defending champions,” Kobe said. “It’s all about challenges. Obviously, we welcome all comers, (but) Argentina is the defending champ, and we want to be able to play the guys who won it.”
August 20th, 2008 at 8:30 pm
Hoff – Excellent analysis. It was the hustle plays today that made all the difference. I know it didn’t amount to anything, but I thought LeBron running all over the court trying to secure that loose ball in the 1st half before diving out of bounds was important to the psyche of both teams. It showed Australia that Team USA was going to be relentless and it showed the rest of Team USA not to take anything for granted.
Kobe looked great in the 2nd half. His 3’s were all no doubt, bottom of the net, and I was glad to see Melo connecting from deep as well. We are going to need those guys hitting from out there in the medal game.
I usually root for Ginobili but I will be rooting ferociously against him.
Also, Kobe’s dunk in the first half was mildly sick. After seeing him blow the two yesterday, it’s good to know he can still explode.
-Tsu
August 20th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
Tsunami,
Thanks.
LeBron’s save was a big play. His steal to start that offensive possession was nice as well. I thought the way he responded to that hard foul on Carmelo was key too. He played another solid all-around game.
Friday’s game is going to be fun to watch. I love watching Ginobili and Bryant play.
Popovich on Ginobili:
“From the time he hits the court, he plays at a competitive level that you rarely see,” Popovich says. “He does the exact same things that Kobe (Bryant) does, that Michael Jordan did.
That means he doesn’t just score; he might go get the biggest defensive or offensive rebound in the game. He might go make the steal. He’ll make the key pass at the end. He’ll get the loose ball.
All those sorts of things that win.”
August 20th, 2008 at 11:19 pm
I’m baaaaaaack.
Remember what I told you some time ago, Hoff? The rest of the world is not catching up.
I watched Croatia play Spain the other night in what was a mockery of the game of basketball. All joking aside, I think I can play for Croatia. Except for Zoran Planinic–who couldn’t cut it in the NBA–nobody on Croatia could ball.
The U.S. will crush Argentina–after all, in 2004 when they were at their best and we were at our worst, they only beat us by eight points. We will beat them by at least 20, maybe 30.
Remember I told you the U.S. only had five losses in Olympic history. Three of those five losses came in 2004. That should tell you a lot. And that’s just about the time when people starting with all of the nonsense, “the world is catching up,” etc. And all along, I’ve said, they’re not catching up, it’s just that we don’t care anymore–we have nothing to prove.
Well, this time around we had reason to play. We let our guard down in 2004 and got embarrassed. Colangelo said that’s not happening again and assembled a real team. The result is what we’re seeing now… we’re head-and-shoulders above the rest of the world.
2004 roster:
Iverson, Duncan, Marbury, Marion, RJ and Odom were the vets. Then you had KIDS: LeBron, Wade, Melo, Amare, Okafor, Boozer. Marbury, a loser, was the starting point. The other starters were Duncan, Iverson, Odom and RJ.
Now… compare this 2004 team with this 2008 team. Compare it with the 2000 team, or 1996, or 1992, etc. Instead of sending our first team All-NBA guys, we sent our kids for promotional purposes.
Now? Forget it. It’s a wrap, guys. Sorry. I don’t even know why we’re talking about the Olympics. The U.S. is back to showing the world who’s the best in the sport… and no other country even comes close.
August 21st, 2008 at 10:42 am
A-Train,
Welcome back!
How do you think this team stacks up against the 1992 and 1996 teams?
And keep in mind, we’re still not represented by the best our country has to offer. We would be however, if we could have convinced Duncan and KG to play.
August 21st, 2008 at 12:28 pm
You have to understand something… this current team, while great, is incredibly young. Colangelo did that on purpose, with the thinking he could bring most of these guys back in 2012. The Dream Team of 1992 and Wannabe-Dream Team of 1996 had players all of whom where in their primes. In 1996, only three players were under the age of 28. In 1992, only three players were under the age of 28, as well (Laettner was 22, Pippen was 26, Admiral was 27).
So to compare this current squad–eight guys under the age of 26–to those teams is unfair.
I will the say I think that, without a doubt, the 2012 team will be the best U.S. Olympic team ever AFTER the original Dream Team.
As good as the original Dream Team though? Unlikely. I mean, we’re talking about a roster that had the greatest player ever (Jordan) on it. I mean, Magic, Bird, etc. No matter what happens in the next ten years, I’m willing to bet Jordan, Magic and Bird still rank in the top-ten of all-time players. Maybe… Maybe… someone like LeBron sneaks into the discussion when all is said and done. But first we need to see the dude LEAD HIS TEAM to MULTIPLE championships. As good as Kobe is, those Lakers teams were Shaq’s teams. And as good as Kobe is, he is FAR away from leaving behind a legacy as legendary as those left behind by Jordan, Magic and Bird.
Kobe, LeBron, etc. are like the 2008 Celtics championship team. They’re on the tip of our tongues. But in comparison, the likes of Jordan, Bird and Magic are like the Celtics dynasty of the 50’s and 60’s. I mean, the separation IS THAT GREAT. It’s not even remotely close.
The original Dream Team will be the greatest basketball team ever assembled FOR A VERY, VERY, VERY LONG TIME.
But like I said, I do think the 2012 team will be really special. And by special, I mean the team will beat EVERY OTHER TEAM OUT THERE by 50 points. I’m talking 1992 dominance.
I also think the 2012 team will be, maybe, better than the 1996 team. But as of right now, this current team stands a DISTANT third best of the three.
August 23rd, 2008 at 8:49 pm
A-Train,
I think this year’s squad is the second best team of all-time. The 96 team was incredibly good though. It would be a great series, but I think the Redeem Team would win in 7.
As far as the Dream Team vs. this squad, I think the Dream Team would have a big advantage at point guard and center. But I think the Redeem Team would match up very well from the 2 to the 4 position.
As for your comments on the rest of the world catching up, consider this:
“Back in 92′, few of the foreign teams had legit NBA players. Germany had Detlef Schrempf, who was a 6th man for the Sonics. Lithuania had then-current Golden State Warrior reserve Šarūnas Marčiulionis and eventual Blazer Arvydas Sabonis. Croatia had five current or future NBA players in Dražen Petrović, Toni Kukoč, Dino Radja, Stojko Vranković, and Žan Tabak. Petrović died before he made a huge NBA impact. Toni Kukoč went on to a respectable NBA career. The other guys were pioneers in the art of weedcarrying excellent luggage handlers.
This year, seemingly every opponent has 2-3 solid NBA players. China has the NBA’s best big man in Yao Ming, budding star Yi Jianlian, Lakers rookie Sun Yue, and NBA yet Wang Zhizhi. Germany has Clippers star Chris Kaman and recent NBA MVP Dirk Nowitzki. Greece has recent NBA players Vasileios Spanoulis, Antonis Fotsis, Andreas Glyniadakis, and Clippers draftee Sofoklis Schortsanitis. Spain has Lakers all-star big man Pau Gasol, Blazers rookie Rudy Fernandez, recent NBA players Raul Lopez, Juan Carlos Navarro, and Jorge Garbajosa, Raptors starting PG Jose Calderon, Grizzlies rookie Marc Gasol, and teen sensation (and likely #1 pick in next year’s draft) Ricky Rubio. Australia has Bucks’ center and recent #1 overall pick Andrew Bogut. Argentina, Lithuania, Croatia, and Russia have more NBA players than I’ve got time and space to list here.”
http://www.averagebro.com/2008/08/is-redeem-team-better-than-92-dream.html
I think the rest of the world has done an admirable job of matching up with our first unit, but we blow teams out in the second quarter because they don’t have the depth to stay with us. That’s not to say other teams would win if they had our depth, but our margin of victory would be a lot closer.
August 24th, 2008 at 10:48 am
Hoff… Really, I’m starting to think you’re naive. How old are you? Seriously. Because only someone of the Kobe generation would think that the Redeem Team could even be mentioned in the same sentence as the Dream Team. That’s nonsense two types of people talk about: those with a limited scope of basketball knowledge and viewing experience, and those in the media who wish to sensationalize current events for entertainment purposes. Bob Costas knows the answer, but I’m sure–because his job calls for it–he has asked someone on live TV how the Redeem Team compares to the Dream Team.
The fact you say ignorant things like implying Detlef Scrempf was *just* a sixth-man, and fail to mention how Arydas Sabonis–the greatest foreign center, and maybe all-around basketball player ever–came to the NBA when his best days were long gone, shows me you’ll say anything to make your case.
Detlef Schrempf was every bit as good as Dirk Nowitzki, just nowhere near as publicized. The NBA was too good and deep back then. In today’s league, marginal players get attention because the league is trying to sell us on something. Back then the league didn’t have to sell us anything–the product was so good it sold itself.
The 1996 Dream Team featured Charles Barkley, who even at age 33, was better than any forward on this current team (except for LeBron). It had Karl Malone, who also at age 33, was better than any forward on this team (except for LeBron).
Grant Hill and Penny before they got hurt–especially Hill–were better than everybody on this current team except for Kobe, Bron and maybe Wade.
Come on, man…get serious. Like I said, this current team four years from now will be comparable to the 1996 team–maybe even better (I think it will be). That’s when the Wades, Boshs, Brons, Howards, etc., are all in their primes. But right now, this Redeem Team is more promise than punch. This Redeem Team is young. Chris Paul has been in the league how long? Already at this point in his career–he just turned 23–you’re ready to compare to him to Gary Payton at age 28? I mean, do you know how ridiculous you are being?
You’re comparing Reggie Miller, at his best, to Michael Redd?
Dude.
I watched the game against Spain today shaking my head. Defensively, we played like idiots. Every time a Spanish player faked a pass, an American player dove into the passing lane. It was ridiculous how much we were overplaying on defense. Today’s player is retarded. Seriously. It used to be players were 25% skill, 25% talent, 25% smarts, 25% athleticism. Today’s players are 10% skill, 40% talent, 50% athleticism and 0% smarts.
The original Dream Team would CRUSH this Redeem Team. CRUSH.
The 1996 team would beat them in 5, if not sweep.
August 24th, 2008 at 6:35 pm
A-Train,
Where did I say this year’s Olympic team would defeat the Dream Team? I said they would defeat the 96 team and I believe that to be true.
The 96 squad had an advantage in the frontcourt. But the international game is perimeter driven. And yes, with Kobe, Wade, James, and Anthony, not to mention CP3 (who is insanely good no matter his age) I think the Redeem Team has a big advantage in the backcourt.
I simply pointed out the number of international players in the NBA today, compared to yesteryear. I think that’s a telling statistic.
You seem to be the only one who refuses to believe the rest of the world is catching up? And I’m naive?
Team USA made errors defensively, but give Spain credit, they executed their offense with precision and hit quite a few difficult shots. Not to mention the poise they displayed throughout the game.
The 2012 team will be good, probably better than this year’s squad, but I can guarantee you they won’t defeat everyone by 50 points. Just like this years squad couldn’t.
Lastly, are you really going to classify me as having a “limited scope of basketball knowledge and viewing experience?”
Lol. That’s funny Train.
For the record, I’m 27.
August 24th, 2008 at 6:36 pm
Do me a favor and listen to the audio interview with Larry Bird that I linked to here:
http://ballerblogger.com/2008/08/20/the-highlights-2/
August 25th, 2008 at 8:59 am
“I simply pointed out the number of international players in the NBA today, compared to yesteryear. I think that’s a telling statistic.”
Yeah, the NBA went to shit in the late 90’s and that’s why all of these players–who couldn’t play in the league earlier on–started coming to the NBA.
And by “coming to the NBA,” I mean the reality of the matter, our GMs BROUGHT THEM HERE via the draft. GMs were tired of drafting these wet-behind-the-ears underclassmen and high schoolers, so they started targeting foreigners, all of whom were fundamentally-sound, team-oriented and coachable.
And even now, as I’ve said a million times, it’s apparent most of the foreign talent in the NBA is marginal. You have Yao, a promising and skilled big who can’t play 60 games, Dirk, a second-tier star, and then what? Parker and Manu, both of who are elite role players. Who am I missing? Gasol. And this is about it… out of all the foreign players in the NBA, there are like five guys who are actually above average. I like Calderon, but unlike most people, I wait to see what a player can do over the course of a few years before I crown him the second coming of Christ. As of right now, he is nobody and has accomplished nothing.
If there were a rule prohibiting American players from joining the NBA prior to the completion of at least three years of college, you’d see the league’s foreign pool diminish. I’d bet my life on it. But because guys come out so young, GMs don’t have much of a choice. Do I take a 17-year-old coming out of a North Carolina high school league or do I take Ricky Rubio, a 17-year-old with experience playing with adults on a grand stage? It’s a no-brainer.
But it’s not because the foreign players got good. Do your homework. The influx started circa 1998 at exactly the same time the league started taking in high schoolers. It’s not a coincidence. The only foreigners who were in the NBA in the 90’s were really the best of their countries’ teams (no Oberto’s and such).
1992 Croatian team featured five NBA players, including the country’s two best players ever (Kukoc and Petrovic). Petrovic averaged over 20 points per game in two straight seasons before his death. Dino Radja averaged 17 and 8 over the course of his NBA career.
2008 Croatian team had one, rookie Roko Ukic–just got drafted by Raptors–and he sucks (shot 17-52 in the Olympics).
1992 Lithuanian team featured two NBA players, Sabonis and Marciulionis, the country’s two best players ever.
2008 Lithuanian team had one, marginal player Linas Kleiza.
1992 Russian team had no NBA players but yet missed the Bronze, losing by four to Lithuania.
2008 Russian team features Kirilenko and is awful.
1992 Brazil team featured Oscar Schmidt, who never played in the NBA despite being one of the world’s best players. In three out of the five Olympics he participated in, he was overall leading scorer.
2008 Brazil team has three NBA players–all marginal–and the team did not participate in the Olympics.
1992 Germany team featured Detlef Schrempf and Uwe Blab (five years in NBA but almost never played). Germany finished 3-5. Schrempf averaged 23 points and 10 rebounds per game.
2008 Germany team featured Dirk Nowitzki (I’m not counting Kaman because even his parents weren’t immigrants, and he spent his whole life in America. He just wanted to play in the Olympics so he used his German bloodline to get in). The German team won only one game, against Angola–Dirk averaged 17 points and 8 rebounds. He put up big numbers in one game (24 and 17), which skews the stats, but he actually played bad in that game (7-20 shooting, 7 turnovers).
I could go on forever.
Spain and Argentina weren’t really players until recently. Spain obviously has eight current NBA players, none of whom are anything special with the exception of Pau Gasol. We’ll see how Calderon does this year. The other six guys either never played or rode the bench.
Argentina had a team compete in 1996. That team featured Oberto and Wolkowyski, both marginal NBA talents. They were atrocious.
The 2004 team won the *gold* (see asterisks below) and featured seven players with NBA experience (most limited). All of them are role players and/or marginal talents with the exception of Manu, who is an elite role player (can’t call the guy anything else if he has averaged sub-30 minutes per game for his career.
**The U.S. should have won this thing. They sent bums like Stephon Marbury and kids like Richard Jefferson and totally blew it. The U.S. Olympic team has lost only five games in its history. Five! Three of the five came in 2004. It was obvious we didn’t give a shit. If we send our best–what other countries do–all the time, we’ll never lose a game.
We’re what now, like 120-5 all-time? Three came in the give-up summer, and then there was the Russian robbery in 72(?), and I don’t know the last one.
Dominance.
As for you saying the Redeem Team has an advantage over the 1996 Dream Team III on the perimeter:
Penny, Stockton Payton is a huge advantage over Paul, Kidd and Williams.
Reggie definitely gets the nod over Redd.
Wade and Kobe over Mitch Richmond is a no-brainer. I mean, Richmond at the time was being called the second-best two in the league after Michael, but still, Kobe is better, and a healthy Wade is incredibly more dynamic.
That’s really where it ends, because once you start getting into the forwards, the 1996 has such a clear advantage. Pippen, Barkley, Malone and Grant Hill over LeBron, Melo and Boozer.
Shaq, Olajuwon and Robinson over Bosh and Howard.
I mean, you’re comparing proven HOF guys against guys who haven’t even shown us their best yet. That’s why I say the 2012 team will be comparable to the 1996 team. But to have this discussion now is nuts. The eras were different as well. But just going alone on the caliber of the players involved, the 1996 was better.
If you had to combine the two teams to make ONE team–in other words, take the best 12 guys (considering all circumstances–Kidd and Stockton are off because they were old), it would be like this:
Center: Shaq, Olajuwon and Robinson
Forward: Barkley, Pippen, LeBron, Malone, Hill
Guard: Kobe, Wade, Payton, Penny
This would be the team. Only three players from the 2008 team would have been good enough to play on the 1996 team.
And if you were to expand it to include the 1992 team, forget it. Just Kobe makes the cut, replacing your choice of Laettner, Drexler, or Mullin.
August 27th, 2008 at 9:28 am
A-Train,
“If there were a rule prohibiting American players from joining the NBA prior to the completion of at least three years of college, you’d see the league’s foreign pool diminish. I’d bet my life on it. But because guys come out so young, GMs don’t have much of a choice. Do I take a 17-year-old coming out of a North Carolina high school league or do I take Ricky Rubio, a 17-year-old with experience playing with adults on a grand stage? It’s a no-brainer.
But it’s not because the foreign players got good. Do your homework. But it’s not because the foreign players got good. Do your homework. The influx started circa 1998 at exactly the same time the league started taking in high schoolers. It’s not a coincidence. The only foreigners who were in the NBA in the 90’s were really the best of their countries’ teams (no Oberto’s and such).”
I think you should do the homework Train. Because I’m not convinced.
I think that would be a great blog. And I would LOVE to see you write it.
Kobe and Wade have a much larger advantage over Miller and Richmond than Penny, Payton, and Stockton have over CP3, D. Will, and Kidd.
As for forwards, Barkley isn’t a shooting forward. But I think a motivated LeBron James is capable of defending him. And I don’t think Barkley, Pippen, or Grant Hill could stop LeBron on the other end.
Shaq, Olajuwon and Robinson over Bosh and Howard is a no brainer. But again, the international game is perimeter oriented.
I know you’d like to write off our margin of victory decreasing as proof of Team USA’s decreasing talent, but I think you’re wrong Train.
This may be one of those times we have to agree to disagree.
August 27th, 2008 at 10:27 am
Nah man, I give up. I don’t have the time to convince a world that can’t think for itself (not saying you, just in general). I have the same exact issues with hip-hop and I fight with people over it every single day. I’m reaching the point I just have to give up because people don’t “get it”–they know what they know and that’s enough for them. Forget about researching history, grabbing a mic and rapping to understand the skill, etc. People believe what they’re told to believe, and they don’t question shit.
George Carlin, one of the true geniuses of our time, spoke about this all the time. People don’t have the time to really educate themselves on subjects. They just learn enough so they don’t look ignorant talking about it.
Lil Wayne is NOT a good music artist. I mean, I remember when rappers used to make fun of him. Now, with rap being pretty much dead–it’s not dead, but you have to dig to find the quality–he’s one of the best. When I was kid, I had Nas, Biggie, Jay-Z and Pac at their best. Right there, those are four of the all-time greats. Those four blow anything today out of the water. But ask people today who’s the best rapper, and names like Lil Wayne, The Game, 50 Cent, etc., will come up in the discussion. It’s pretty ridiculous, then again, like I said, maybe I shouldn’t expect a Lil Wayne fan to go dig up hip-hop from the mid-90’s.
Nas, Biggie, Pac, and Jay, to me, are no different than Magic, Bird, Michael, etc. These guys are the best, and it’s not because I saw them, but because they are the best. Make an all-time list, and these names come up in the top ten all-time. As good as Kobe is, Lebron too, these guys are not top-ten all-time. Could they be when all is said and done? Sure. But as of right now, no. And I see it as unlikely they will unless they start winning titles.
I’m spoiled. I had the golden era of hip-hop and the golden era of basketball. A baseball fan from the 60’s can say the same about baseball, as well as rock and roll. I wasn’t around then, but even I know the best baseball and rock came during that period. And I don’t even listen to or care for the Beatles, but I can tell you they are the best. I can tell you watching Mays and Aaron was a privilege in comparison to watching the likes of A-Rod and Sosa, even if their numbers do compare–it’s not the same.
But people don’t understand this. There’s opinion, yes, but to me there’s fact too. There’s a lot of gray, but there’s also a lot of black and white. The NBA was better in the 80’s and 90’s than it is now. Some will say that’s opinion, but I say it’s a fact. Hip-hop was better in the 90’s than it is now. Music, in general, was better in the 60’s and 70’s than in any other period (classical, the greatest music ever, is not counted in this discussion). You know, we may not listen to or like classical music, but it is better music than most other genres of music. I mean, it takes elite level of mastering of instruments. It takes composition. It’s not like going to a studio, getting on a drum machine, sampling and cooking up a hit.
I view sports the same way. Unfortunately, like in music, natural talent and physical ability has replaced skill to a great degree. It’s the same reason why someone like Manu Ginobili, who can’t go to his right, and on defense lunges and reaches all the time, gets considered a good player. Where have the basics gone? I feel like Ginobili would have had a much harder time in an era where every player was fundamentally sound. But in today’s game? I don’t even see people force him to drive right. It’s so absurd.
I’ll be real with you. I’m 30, 5-foot-9 and about 25 pounds overweight. I play basketball two times a week, at least for two hours each time. Otherwise, I don’t exercise shit. And I routinely go to parks and beat on kids much younger than me. There’s a 21-year-old at my park who averages 20 points per game as a Division III college. I guard this guy, and he doesn’t he get a decent shot off. To me, that’s so telling. He should be kicking my ass–all of these young kids should be–but instead I kick their asses. Why? Because I know how to play. These young kids today all try to pull And-1 moves and such–it’s ridiculous. They’ll pull a fancy move, get to the hoop and then blow an open layup. I’ll let them get by me and right by the hoop I’ll strip them every time. I always say, “didn’t anybody ever teach you how to protect the ball on a drive?” Big men, I strip them all day. I tell them, “when you’re in front of the hoop, why must you bring the ball down below your waist to gather yourself for a shot…keep the ball up and above your head where little guys like me can’t get it.”
Today’s best is nothing like yesterday’s best. This is a watered down era, man.
You don’t think Scottie Pippen could have defended LeBron? I think that’s crazy. I think he would have given LeBron serious problems.
I agree Kobe and Wade are much better than Richmond and Miller. But in no way can you compare the forwards–it’s not even close. LeBron is the only one who could have hanged, and even then, I think Pippen outplays him. Barkley would destroy Anthony. Malone would destroy Boozer.
E-mail me your address… I’m going to send you a book or two.
August 28th, 2008 at 2:49 pm
A-Train,
I have the same issues with hip-hop.
I think Lil Wayne, The Game, and 50 are garbage.
To be honest, I don’t even listen to that much hip-hop anymore. I like Jay-Z and Kanye. That’s about it.
And I’ll never argue that this era is greater than the late 80’s or early 90’s. Nor will I argue that today’s players are more fundamentally sound.
And I agree completely with your statement about And1 basketball. I think it’s a disgrace to the game. It’s supposed to be entertainment. But kids today take it too seriously.
But I still believe the rest of the world is catching up. There are more quality players from foreign countries. And I don’t think there inclusion in the NBA can be explained with all of the high school kids that were drafted from 1996 to 2005.
I’ve done the research:
http://www.realgm.com/src_feature_article/165/20080409/a_76_percent_success_rate_not_enough/
I’ll e-mail you my address. I’m always looking to learn about hoops…
August 28th, 2008 at 9:19 pm
Good article on RealGM…well-written, informative; good read in general.
However, I think it stops short of the true essence of the problem. It’s not so much a high school-to NBA-issue as it is an underclassmen-to-NBA issue. Timing is also a big factor as well, I think.
Remember that when the NBA was good the bulk of the stars where in their primes. Then all of a sudden there was this mass retirement (Jordan, Pippen, Malone, Stockton, Robinson, Ewing, Olajuwon, Barkley, etc.) taking place at the same exact time a new underclassmen-to-NBA movement kicked off. The league got so incredibly young and inexperienced so quickly. I mean, don’t you remember how *cough* Stephon Marbury was considered one of the best players in the league?
So, it’s not just a high school. You know, if you’re good enough to go pro from high school, chances are you were going to make the league anyhow and become a good player–it was just a matter of time. So, the 76% rate you came up with doesn’t surprise me. After all, most of these guys were the best high schoolers in the country, who in turn would have become the best college players in the country, who in turn would have been lottery picks anyhow. So, these guys were good.
But when all of the high school kids started entering the draft, every college freshman and sophomore started thinking, “hey, if these high school kids are making it, then surely, me, with college experience, can surely make it.” And that’s when you had William Avery and Omar Cook, etc. During this time, there was a record high of underclassmen entering the league, and the vast majority of these guys fell on their faces.
Personally, I don’t think it has to do with talent. Instead it has to do with readiness. Dunleavy is right when he says riding an NBA bench will make you a better player than starring at the college level. However, from the league’s point of view, you want guys coming into your league ready to play, not ready to learn. There’s a big difference there. And all of these unprepared guys came into the league at the same time… the NBA became daycare. That’s why the NBDL was created. Stern wanted to get these unprepared guys into an NBA boot camp of sorts–that’s what the NBDL is, really–before showcasing them to the world as part of his product.
A better study would be looking at the history of how underclassmen have fared in the NBA. I bet you underclassmen in the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s stuck in the NBA at a much higher rate than more recent underclassmen. Really, look at the past ten drafts, and I’m willing to bet the majority of underclassmen didn’t cut it in the league. And that’s not because the league was good, but rather because the league was saturated with unqualified youngsters.
On a side note, I spoke to a 50-year-old gentleman at the park today who is a big basketball guy. He grew up with recruiting guru Tom Konchalski–in my neighborhood in Queens, actually–and knows the game inside-out. He has coached AAU ball for a long time, and pretty much knows everybody (Sonny Vaccaro, top NYC high school coaches, etc.). And we actually played two-on-two–he had his son, a senior guard at D-3 Drew University in New Jersey, with him–and the man was a ridiculous shooter. I mean, really, he did not miss a shot. He played high school ball against Lew Alcindor, etc. Anyhow, my point in saying all of this is that I’m selling you on the reality that this was a polished “basketball man.”
And while talking to him, we both expressed how upset we were with today’s generation being so ignorant about the game. At one point he said, “people talk about LeBron this, LeBron that–don’t get me wrong, he’s a fantastic player–but when people start comparing him or Kobe to Michael Jordan, they’re out of their f**king minds… Jordan is on a whole different planet than these guys… look at the Finals, Paul Pierce locked Kobe down… nobody ever came close to locking Michael down, not once, never.”
August 29th, 2008 at 8:58 am
A-Train,
You said, “A better study would be looking at the history of how underclassmen have fared in the NBA. I bet you underclassmen in the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s stuck in the NBA at a much higher rate than more recent underclassmen. Really, look at the past ten drafts, and I’m willing to bet the majority of underclassmen didn’t cut it in the league. And that’s not because the league was good, but rather because the league was saturated with unqualified youngsters.”
That would be a great study. But the emergence of foreign born players in the league has contributed to one hit wonder underclassmen in the NBA too. I know you don’t agree, but guys like Ginobili and Nowitzki can play. And they would have made the league and excelled in any era.
As far as MJ being shut down, that’s not entirely true. People remember the six rings MJ, but choose to forget how difficult it was for Jordan to beat the Pistons. The Pistons did shut him down, if I’m not mistaken, they sent him packing in three straight playoffs.
And that is where Kobe and LeBron are at now. Jordan was 27 when he won his first ring. It took him seven seasons to learn how to play the team game that is required to win a championship. Kobe was 29 last year. And he was his fourth season without Shaq. Bryant’s learning curve basically started over when O’Neal was traded to the Heat.
LeBron is even younger. The guy is only 23 years old. My point is to give these guys time.
Jordan struggled. Even in the NBA Finals. He shot 41% against Seattle in 1996. He played terribly in the series deciding game. But Pippen and Rodman stepped up. Rodman had 11 offensive rebounds in the championship deciding game.
Where’s Kobe and LeBron’s Rodman and Pippen? As good as Odom and Gasol are, neither one of those players compares to Rodman and Pippen. LeBron’s supporting cast doesn’t even deserve mentioning.