Isn’t it impressive that a guy with zero post moves scores the majority of his points in the paint? Isn’t it impressive that a guy has the ability to get into the paint, the “DEMEANOR” to continue to attack, and the strength to do it for 82 games plus playoffs plus olympics?

And as far as the other stuff. I am merely pointing out that Kobe’s field goal percentage (which is closely correlated to efficiency) has always been higher when he has had better players around him. Knowing that, isn’t it impressive that LeBron has had HIGHER field goal percentages than Kobe, even though LeBron has never played with a Shaq or Gasol?

I’m not trying to get into the whole, who had a worse supporting cast in 2006 argument. Both teams had weak supporting casts – not going there now.

Something about after LeBron was fouled, he didn’t take it as personally as Kobe?

The icing on the cake though, was when they invoked the great names of the past. C-Webb and his “demeanor” that became contagious. Charles Barkley and his “demeanor” which was contagious. Wow, lots of wasted talent, hung over day games, and pissed off teammates – yeah that demeanor was contagious. Contagious enough to get zero rings between them.

ANd then, hilariously, Kenny uses Hakeem as an example. First of all, Hakeem is a champion, and one of the greatest players of all time. But wasn’t he the ultimate nice guy? I can’t EVER remember Hakeem taking anything personally. Or…letting his “demeanor” show it. He dominated on the court – and that was enough.

I just can’t take all this bull anymore. It’s like – we have GOT TO FIND a reason to prove that Kobe is still the man. And the only way we can give LeBron props is by making it seem like he’s just a student of Kobe anyway.

Hoffman this is why I hate the media. WTF is demeanor? How does points is DEMEANOR worth?

You said, “But in the previous paragraph, he points out that Dwyane Wade, Chris Paul, LeBron James, and Kobe Bryant are all at the top of PER. Um, since when do ANY of those players live in the post?! LeBron rarely defends post players, and he rarely posts up, and when he does post up, he is immediately double-teamed. He is 6′8″, not 7 feet tall. the fact that he scores so many of his points in the paint is a tribute to his aggressiveness, shot selection, and his incredible handles…”

I think Jones’ argument was sound. LeBron and Wade live in the post in the sense that they score the majority of their points in the paint, which gives them a higher field goal percentage. 59% of LeBron’s shot are considered jumpshots. 67% of Wade’s shots are considered jumpshots. 78% of Kobe’s shots are considered jumpshots. For comparison, 61% of Duncan’s shots are considered jumpshots. LeBron attempts more shots in the paint than the best power forward in the game.

If anything, Kobe’s shooting percentage (48%) is a testament to his shooting ability since he takes so many shots from the perimeter.

You could argue that Wade and Paul don’t live in the post, but LeBron certainly does.

You said, “Anyway, Jones then goes off on a tangent about how Kobe’s PER would be much higher if not for Phil Jackson always holding him back. But doesn’t that right there perfectly indicate a few facts about this whole argument? 1.) That the Lakers (just like everyone other than Jordan’s bulls) were unable to win a title with a dominant big? and 2.) Kobe’s FG percentage took a hit when Shaq left, and it wasn’t really until the best year of his career (2006) that he was able to get it back to his 21 year old level. this year, playing alongside Gasol and Bynum, his FG% is at an all time high.”

I’m not sure what point you were trying to make, but I’m fairly certain that Jones was trying to point out how Bryant’s numbers were kept in check because he was second fiddle to Shaq. You believe that Kobe’s career year was his 2006 season. Bryant was playing close to that level in 2003 and 2004 too. But he didn’t have a green light. Shaq was the focal point during those seasons and rightfully so, but Bryant’s numbers would have been at his 2006 level if he had been the go-to guy during those seasons. He was hurt in 2005.

You said, “But here’s the problem. LeBron James’ efficiency has been higher than Kobe’s almost ever year and he has had NO dominant players alongside him. So, if Kobe’s FG% increases because he has more talent around him (which makes sense…less double teams) and Lebron’s is always higher anyway, in spite of lack of talent (playing through double and triple teams) – why does it surprise anyone that LeBron is a more efficient player?”

Which years are you referring to? Before last season, I think a very strong argument could be made that LeBron had a better supporting cast. Remember, Bryant was playing with Smush Parker and Kwame Brown. Parker was LA’s starting point guard for TWO SEASONS (2006 & 2007). Smush was the 12th pick of the 2008 D-League draft. The guy was a bum. So keep that in mind when talking about the talent surrounding Kobe during what you believe to be are his career years.

My point is this: if Bryant is the focal point in 2003 & 2004 and if he’s surrounded by anything close to an average supporting cast in 2006 & 2007, we would have seen numbers like he’s putting up this season. A lot of “ifs,” I know…

And I’m not even trying to argue that Bryant would have been more efficient that James. But I don’t equate PER with greatness either. It’s a number. Nothing more. Nothing less. And numbers will never tell the whole story.

different arguments resonate with different people. Although I have to say, the one FOR Kobe is made no sense to me. Here’s the excerpts I took exception to:

“First of all, PER is weighted in favor of players who have games predicated on scoring closer to the basket and playing in the paint. The rebound rate for someone that defends the low post, plays in the low post or does most of their dirty work getting to the rim is going to be a bit higher than someone that spends most of their time out on the perimeter. Same could be said for field goal percentages, as those that get to the rim or play close to the rim are going to be higher than those that play around the perimeter.”

But in the previous paragraph, he points out that Dwyane Wade, Chris Paul, LeBron James, and Kobe Bryant are all at the top of PER. Um, since when do ANY of those players live in the post?! LeBron rarely defends post players, and he rarely posts up, and when he does post up, he is immediately double-teamed. He is 6′8″, not 7 feet tall. the fact that he scores so many of his points in the paint is a tribute to his aggressiveness, shot selection, and his incredible handles…

the same can be said for the other 3! None of those guys live in the post.

Then he goes on to show that with the exception of a few players, the majority of the best PER seasons are from bigs. And then (incredibly) here are his exceptions: Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson, and Tracy McGrady. Um, I’m sorry, aren’t 4 of those players 4 of the best 10 players of all time?! So, PER is getting those guys right…

Finally he makes a point worth making, that Elton Brand has a higher career PER than John Stockton, Clyde Drexler, Gary payton, and Scottie Pippen. Now, this is defintely worth pointing out, especially since Brand has been a disaster this season – makes the point more POIGNANT. But here’s the problem, offensively, Brand’s career probably IS on par with those guys. So without any mention of it, Nate Jones finally reveals the true problem with PER – the only defensive measurements it takes into account are steals, blocks, and rebounds – which is definitely not enough of a defensive picture. We can get a pretty good picture of a player’s offensive production from PER, but things like help-side defense, and opponent field goal percentage are not accounted for. For example, Chris Paul leads the league in steals and has a pretty respectable rebound rate for his position. But everyone will tell you that at Paul’s size, he’s not bothering anyone’s shot. So maybe PER overrates him a bit.

Anyway, Jones then goes off on a tangent about how Kobe’s PER would be much higher if not for Phil Jackson always holding him back. But doesn’t that right there perfectly indicate a few facts about this whole argument? 1.) That the Lakers (just like everyone other than Jordan’s bulls) were unable to win a title with a dominant big? and 2.) Kobe’s FG percentage took a hit when Shaq left, and it wasn’t really until the best year of his career (2006) that he was able to get it back to his 21 year old level. this year, playing alongside Gasol and Bynum, his FG% is at an all time high. But here’s the problem. LeBron James’ efficiency has been higher than Kobe’s almost ever year and he has had NO dominant players alongside him. So, if Kobe’s FG% increases because he has more talent around him (which makes sense…less double teams) and Lebron’s is always higher anyway, in spite of lack of talent (playing through double and triple teams) – why does it surprise anyone that LeBron is a more efficient player?

In the end, PER is an improvement over per/game stats and should be treated as such – not the end all stat. But dang, reading http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=838&cpage=1#comment-8477 blew me away. I had no idea LeBron was THAT MUCH BETTER defensively than all those other players that came before him.