Position Rankings: Shooting Guards

» October 12, 2009 1:04 PM | By Erick Blasco

A shooting guard’s primary assignment is to score the bulk of a team‘s perimeter points. Since most two-guards are naturally accomplished scorers, the ability to score in traffic, make plays for others, defend, and transcend an opponent’s solid defensive efforts are what separate the good from the great.

This list does not take into account a player’s future prospects or past salad days. The criteria is simple: Which NBA shooting guard would be best suited to winning a championship with a random collection of starting-level talent. For example, if Andrew Bynum, Luis Scola, Al Thornton, and Beno Udrih are your teammates, who would you want as your shooting guard?

Due to the way some NBA lineups are presently constructed, a handful of potential shooting guards will be asked to play different positions this year. For that reason, Gilbert Arenas and Monta Ellis are listed as point guards.

No rookies made the list, as neither you nor I have seen them play in meaningful games against meaningful competition to know where they should be ranked.

With that out of the way, on to the list itself.

1. Kobe Bryant—Los Angeles Lakers

Until LeBron James develops a midrange game, Kobe will be the best player in the league.

What can Kobe do? For starters, Kobe has the most diverse offensive skillset of any player in the NBA. He can post, he can shoot, he can drive. He can use either hand. He can attack from either side of the court. He can finish in the paint. Every spot on the court is a hotspot for Kobe.

Kobe also plays with good, though not great court vision, and is a terrific passer. His defense runs hot and cold as he takes far too many plays off, but late in games there’s no better stopper around.

While Kobe still takes a small handful of bad shot attempts a game, he’s developed the wisdom to know when to be an all-world scorer and when to be an all-world distributor, trusting his teammates more, and in turn, having his teammates all improve considerably the last two seasons.

Most importantly, while there are players who can certainly match Kobe’s competitive fire, nobody exceeds it, and nobody does more to will his team to victory than Bryant.

He’s one of the best ever, and number one on this list.

2. Dwyane Wade—Miami Heat

A not-too-distant runner up to Kobe, Wade is the rare superstar who excels in nearly every aspect of the game. Incredibly athletic and resoundingly fearless, Wade dominates both with his speed and with his power.

Wade attacks the paint the way a running back attacks the hole, and since he’s so strong and creative, he’s one of the best finishers in the game. He can also post, pass, and has very good court vision, though he doesn’t exceed Bryant’s talents in any of those areas.

Where Wade does exceed Bryant is his quarter-to-quarter defense which is one of the best in the business. And though Wade will take chances defensively, his incredible instincts and quickness into passing lanes make passing the ball into his vicinity a nightmare.

If there’s anyplace where Wade significantly trails Kobe, it’s in the shooting department, where Wade has always been just an average perimeter shooter.

Still, if Wade isn’t quite the talent Kobe is, he’s every bit the winner and every bit the champion with a special collection of spectacular talent and an indomitable will.

3. Brandon Roy—Portland Trail Blazers

Roy’s the third shooting guard on the list who can completely take over a contest. He’s not as fantastically athletic as Kobe and Wade, but he’s well-rounded in every facet in the game. He’s a clever finisher, he can shoot, he can pull-and-pop, he can use either hand, and he’s a good defender.

What separates Roy from his peers is his tremendous court awareness and basketball IQ. He rarely forces his offense and gets a high rate of efficient shots for himself and his teammates simply by seeing the floor and understanding situations. Plus, Roy is fundamentally sound across the board. And when Roy has to take over a game, his silken jump shot, flowing crossover, and ability to live in the paint dominates fourth quarters.

The best testament to Roy’s talent is the fact that in only three years he’s led the Blazers to home court advantage in the murderous Western Conference. Simply making the playoffs isn’t the extent of Roy’s pedigree. He can be a Finals MVP-caliber player.

4. Joe Johnson—Atlanta Hawks

Though Johnson is a prodigious scorer and playmaker who can also defend, he’s a notch below the transcendent superstars above him because he’s a touch easier to guard, plays too nonchalant at times, and has difficulty elevating his game on the road in the playoffs.

5. Manu Ginobili—San Antonio Spurs

Ginobili is the player who stirs the Spurs’ drink. He has a terrific first step, is creative with the ball, is a great shooter, an adequate defender, and an underrated finisher at the basket. What separates Ginobili from scorers below him is his moxie in making huge shots in huge moments. I considered placing him above Johnson, but with Ginobili’s injury history, he’s relegated to fifth.

6. Shane Battier—Houston Rockets

A special defender, Battier has a habit of eliminating elite scorers—or at least turning them into contested jump shooters minimizing their harm. He’s also a capable shot blocker and a remarkable team defender.

On offense, Battier’s a reliable three-point shooter who uses the baseline well and can occasionally score from the post. He’s a good passer who knows what a defense is trying to do and how to beat it.

Battier also possesses tremendous leadership skills and elevates the play of his teammates on both ends.

He’s the rare non-scoring difference maker.

7. Andre Iguodala—Philadelphia 76ers

Iguodala’s jump shot is still iffy and he’s neither a prime scoring option nor a lockdown defender, but he has value by being very good on both sides of the ball. Iguodala is a high-flyer who runs the court with abandon and has a strong upper body to ward off defenders and finish. Plus he can rebound and pass.

On the opposite end, Iguodala uses his athleticism to hang with most quick defenders, and is strong enough to match up with power scorers. Very good offense plus very good defense in this case equals a very good player.

8. Ray Allen—Boston Celtics

Allen’s simply been one of the game’s best clutch shooters this millennium. He’s underrated as a driver, finisher, and defender, though his stock-in-trade is clearly shooting the ball. He’s not a terrific playmaker and if an opponent gameplans to take away his jumper, he becomes ordinary. Those two knocks keep him out of the top five.

9. John Salmons—Chicago Bulls

Salmons has steadily improved his game to the point where he’s now a reliable scorer who can put up points with his jumper, with his ability to get to the rim, and with his ability to finish. He’s a good rebounder for a guard, a good defensive player, and will take over Ben Gordon’s role as Chicago’s go-to scorer.

10. J.R. Smith—Denver Nuggets

Smith has volcanic talent, the kind that erupts and takes over games with a bombardment of scores. In the past, Smith didn’t try on defense and couldn‘t help himself jacking up awful shot after awful shot. However, he’s gradually improved his defense and shot selection to respectable levels. At times, Smith has even shown that he can be an exceptional defensive player.

However, old habits are hard to break and Smith still has a wild side rich with gambling defense, drives into multiple defenders, and step-back 20-foot fadeaways with 20 seconds still on the shot clock. As Smith harnesses his wondrous natural gifts, his game will get better and better.

11. Richard Hamilton—Detroit Pistons

Hamilton may be the best player since Reggie Miller at utilizing screens. His endless motion creates the separation needed to fire an automatic midrange jump shot. Hamilton also has the size to score near the basket and the wingspan to be a good defender. He doesn’t have great range and isn’t a master of creating his own shot which keeps him out of the top ten.

12. Delonte West—Cleveland Cavaliers

The consummate overachiever, The more responsibility West gets, the better he plays. He’s a gritty finisher who can run an offense, shoot, and post up near seven-footers (as he did against Hedo Turkoglu repeatedly during last year’s Conference Finals). He’s a tenacious defender with quick feet and a low center of gravity who knows how to be an effective help-defender. His guts and moxie make him a very good, and very underrated performer.

13. Vince Carter—Orlando Magic

A volume scorer without a killer instinct, Carter’s lackadaisical play results in his teams never meeting high expectations. He can do nearly anything, but instead of going hard at the rim, he avoids contact; instead of working to get good shots, he uncorks needless 28-footers; and instead of using his prodigious athletic traits to be a good defender, he consistently makes mistakes at that end of the court. Carter’s more style than substance.

14. Jason Richardson—Phoenix Suns

J-Rich can score from inside, from outside, from the middle, in the halfcourt, or on the break. He’s also a respectable passer and a good rebounder. Though his defense is degenerate and he’s a volume scorer, he’s prolific enough to make the upper half of the list.

15. Jason Terry—Dallas Mavericks

Nicknamed “Jet,” Terry is airline fuel for a team’s offense. Have a scoring drought? Hook Terry up to the fuselage and watch the points take off. Terry can also play point guard in a pinch and is decent enough at intercepting steals in the passing lane. He’s not a good finisher, positional defender, or reliable clutch player, though, to top the players above him.

16. Ben Gordon—Detroit Pistons

Gordon is a volume scorer who isn’t scared to make big shots in big moments. When Gordon’s running hot, he can roast the nets with his ability to shoot, and he’s quick enough to consistently beat his man off the dribble and get into the paint.

While Gordon does have the guts to perform under the spotlight, he lacks the guts to play acceptable defense and to finish at the hoop. Gordon also becomes too focused on his own shooting at times, neglecting to share the basketball or work to find a more efficient shot. This is the reason that while Gordon is an explosive player, he’s not reliable as a team’s go-to option.

17. Josh Howard—Dallas Mavericks

Howard is an athletic scorer and plus defender who starts games off with a bang. Unfortunately for the Mavericks, he usually ends games with a whimper. Focus has always been a problem for Howard, but he’s one of the most talented two-way players in the league when he’s aggressive and involved.

18. O.J. Mayo—Memphis Grizzlies

Mayo’s a powerful young scorer with an NBA body and NBA talent. He even occasionally plays effective defense, a surprise for a young player on such a moribund franchise. He sometimes dominates the ball, and he’s still very rough around the edges, but as he matures, he’ll grow into a star.

19. Rudy Fernandez—Portland Trail Blazers

Both explosive and clever, Fernandez is a high-flying finisher, a dead-eye shooter, and a terrific playmaker. His defense isn’t great, and he could stand to build more muscle, but Fernandez is an athletic and smart offensive player.

20. Kevin Martin—Sacramento Kings

Martin is a talented left-handed scorer who is too skinny and lacks the court vision to be anything more than a talented scorer. He still needs to get stronger to have more of an impact on the court.

21. Michael Redd—Milwaukee Bucks

Redd was playing some of the best basketball of his career last season before rupturing both his ACL and MCL. His best attribute is his ability to shoot jumpers with one of the fastest releases in basketball. He has a tricky left-handed dribble which helps compensate for average athleticism, and played earnest, hard-nosed defense for Scott-Skiles last season—a surprise because Redd was never a good defender before Skiles‘ arrival. Redd’s a good player, but because of his serious injuries, he may never be the prolific scorer he was before blowing out his ligaments.

22. Raja Bell—Charlotte Bobcats

Bell is still a gritty individual defender and underrated offensive player. His toughness and intelligence were welcome additions to Charlotte—and never replaced by Phoenix last season. He’s a premier three-point shooter with good court vision and defensive awareness, and he rarely makes mistakes.

23. Ronnie Brewer—Utah Jazz

Brewer’s one of the best off-the-ball offensive players in the league as his freakish athleticism on the break and willingness to run the baseline in the halfcourt generate a steady stream of layups and dunks. Defensively, he’s long and rangy, though he isn’t particularly strong.

His downside is his inability to handle the ball consistently and an unreliable chicken wing jump shot. Nonetheless, Brewer’s a very good role player.

24. Tracy McGrady—Houston Rockets

Brittle—both physically and mentally—defenseless, and unable to operate an offense without massaging the ball, McGrady’s injury last season released a burden off the Rockets and allowed them to take flight into the postseason. McGrady’s never been as good as meets the eye—he’s spectacularly talented, but he’s also aloof, uncaring, habitually scared of contact, and when he’s not sufficiently aroused, his defense is among the worst in the league. He’s one of the most overrated players of the decade.

25. Anthony Parker—Cleveland Cavaliers

Parker does a number of things well, but doesn’t stand out in any area. He’s a decent shooter and decent off the bounce, but nothing special. He’s a pretty good defender, though overrated as a stopper. He passes well, cuts well, plays with good awareness, and has good athleticism. He’s versatile enough to earn a spot on the list.

26. Allen Iverson—Memphis Grizzlies

Iverson’s penchant for reckless defense, overhandling, abhorrent shot selection, being undisciplined, having no clue how to do anything without the ball, and failing to sacrifice for the good of a team caught up with him last season.

More damning than all those flaws, Iverson lost a step. Since Iverson doesn’t have the basketball IQ to compensate for his diminishing talent, his journey into NBA old-age won’t be a graceful one.

27. Mike Dunleavy—Indiana Pacers

Dunleavy is a talented shooter and playmaker with the ball in his hands. He has good size and vision which allows him to be the initiator of an offense, whether looking to score or to pass. However, Dunleavy is frail by NBA standards, and is one of the softest players in the league. He’s a poor defender and is recovering from a knee injury which limited him to only 18 games last season. If he overcomes his injuries, his playmaking abilities justify him as a top 20 shooting guard.

28. Courtney Lee—New Jersey Nets

Lee is a bright young player with nice athleticism and a willingness to defend. He’s already a good shooter and he has the talent to create points off the dribble. At 6’5” he’s a touch undersized, and while he’s talented, he’s not an electric scorer. Still, Lee’s a good enough player to earn a place on the list.

29. Eric Gordon—Los Angeles Clippers

Gordon is a strong, stocky shooting guard who has the potential to be a 20-point scorer. His defense is shaky and he’s essentially just an isolation player but the upside is there for Gordon to be a difference maker as a point producer.

30. Ronald Murray—Charlotte Bobcats

An offensive mercenary, Charlotte will be Murray’s seventh home in eight NBA seasons. He’s a hired scorer who can create points for himself from anywhere on the court.—spot up threes, drives into the paint, and pull-ups anywhere in between. Murray has little impact in any non-scoring aspect of the game, but he’s good at what he’s paid to do.

Erick Blasco is a contributing writer for BallerBlogger.com. Erick is attending Brooklyn College on a full scholarship. He is majoring in Television/Radio and minoring in English with the hopes of someday becoming a professional basketball analyst.


33 Responses to “Position Rankings: Shooting Guards”

  1. Tsunami Says:

    “Until LeBron James develops a midrange game, Kobe will be the best player in the league.”

    I don’t understand why LeBron needs to develop the least efficient shot in basketball for him to be considered the best.

  2. Erick Says:

    Because when teams load up on James at the basket and defenders stay close enough to contest his threes, LeBron’s two main options for scoring disappear. His options then become to shoot contested threes or to try to plow through walls, neither of which are efficient shots.

    When James isolates, he always gets a step on his defender, but defenses just send their big men to meet him at the basket. The open shot is just inside the free throw line but LeBron has no pull-up game.

    Also, the toughest place for a defense to send double teams is at the elbow because the player at the elbow is far enough outside to keep spacing, yet close enough to be a scoring threat. LeBron isn’t a scoring threat at the elbow yet.

    Look at how Kobe operates. When he’s not using the triangle, the main place he does his damage is starting at the right elbow. Jordan attacked later in his career from the mid posts.

    LeBron doesn’t have that skill of dominating inside the three point line but away from the basket. His game is incomplete, and when Dwight Howard finally decided to rotate on time during game 6 of the ECF, James couldn’t do as much damage.

  3. Brandon Hoffman Says:

    Tsunami:

    I don’t know if there’s a right or wrong answer in the Kobe-LeBron debate, but for the sake of argument, allow me to play devil’s advocate.

    What do all great defensive teams have in common? They force opposing teams into taking inefficient shots.

    Take a look at the top 6 teams in defensive efficiency last season.

    Now look at LeBron’s splits versus the Magic, Celtics, Rockets, Spurs, and Lakers.

    James shot the ball well versus the Celtics and Spurs, but struggled mightily against the Magic, Rockets, and Lakers. Why? Because they cut off his driving lanes, and forced him to score from mid-range.

    LeBron’s numbers versus the Rockets are especially telling since Houston sported two of the top four wing defenders in the NBA last season.

    James is a terrific player, but I don’t know how he can be considered the consensus “best player in the world” when he struggles to play his brand of basketball against top competition.

    I mean, shouldn’t that be a prerequisite to being the greatest player in the game?

  4. Tsunami Says:

    “LeBron doesn’t have that skill of dominating inside the three point line but away from the basket. His game is incomplete, and when Dwight Howard finally decided to rotate on time during game 6 of the ECF, James couldn’t do as much damage.”

    Come on, man. LeBron averaged 39/8/8 on 4against the regular season’s best defense. His main options didn’t “disappear” with Dwight Howard patrolling the paint and tall wing players hounding him on the perimeter.

    “LeBron isn’t a scoring threat at the elbow yet.”
    Yes, I’m aware. I want to know why this renders him an “incomplete” player.

    How can you say any player is “complete”? Kobe Bryant can’t shoot 3s like Ray Allen. Shaquille Oneal could never hit FT like Mark Price, Michael Jordan couldn’t run the point like Magic.

    They did a study showing how Kobe/LeBron/Wade differed in their susceptibility to good defenses, and you know what they found? Kobe had LESS of a drop off against good defenses as LeBron and Wade. And despite that, LeBron’s production was STILL better against great defenses than Kobe’s was. So, even when Kobe is Kobe and LeBron is at his WORST, he’s still better.

    “Because when teams load up on James at the basket and defenders stay close enough to contest his threes, LeBron’s two main options for scoring disappear. His options then become to shoot contested threes or to try to plow through walls, neither of which are efficient shots.”

    Huh?
    When teams load up on him at the basket he finds open 3 point shooters. Remember 7 assists a night?
    I’m glad you brought up efficiency. LeBron’s efficiency is off the charts and has been for a while now. Saying someone can’t be better than someone else because his offensive weapons aren’t diversified enough makes zero sense if that player is ALREADY more efficient than the one that has more weapons at his disposal.

  5. Tsunami Says:

    “I mean, shouldn’t that be a prerequisite to being the greatest player in the game?”

    Sure, kinda like Kobe’s offensive performances against the Celtics in 2008. I remember all the “kobe’s [NOT] the best player in the world” quotes from Beijing.

    “James shot the ball well versus the Celtics and Spurs, but struggled mightily against the Magic, Rockets, and Lakers. Why? Because they cut off his driving lanes, and forced him to score from mid-range. LeBron’s numbers versus the Rockets are especially telling since Houston sported two of the top four wing defenders in the NBA last season.”

    Struggled mightily against the Magic? Since when did 30.7 9.7 7.0 on 43% shooting and 42% 3 point shooting become “struggling mightily”? And as I just pointed out, he dominated the Magic in the ECF.

    LeBron and the Cavs in general have ALWAYS struggled against the Rockets, no matter who was donning the Houston Jersey. But to say that this year’s 2 game sample size is “telling” just seems like a stretch.

    I think the prerequisite for being the best player in the game is being the best player in the game. Not the player with the most “killer instinct” or the player with the most “clutchness” although LeBron has both. It’s the player that performs the best on the basketball court. That’s LeBron. It’s really not that complicated. He has a higher usage rate than Kobe, and yet he’s more efficient. He gets more open shots for his teammates and makes more game-changing plays at both ends. He does more with less and can beat you in so many more ways than getting hot from mid-range and dropping 30 points.

  6. Tsunami Says:

    Anyway, I know that the Lakers have by far the most vocal fan base in the world. And I know that no mountain of statistical evidence/head to head matchups/or otherwise could ever convince Laker(Kobe) fans what everyone else has already understood. So I wasn’t really starting this to get back into midseason form so early.

    I simply didn’t understand why having a mid-range jumper was the new pre-requisite for being the game’s best. NBA basketball is not pop-a-shot.

  7. Brandon Hoffman Says:

    Tsunami:

    Here’s the study you attempted to reference, and no, it doesn’t show that LeBron is more efficient against great defenses than Bryant.

    James’ offensive rating, shooting percentage, and field goal/free throw attempts “plummet” versus elite defensive teams. His pure point and turnover rate take a turn for the worse as well. Paine tries to argue that LeBron is more effective because he’s forced to take on a larger workload, but that’s faulty since both players are, to a certain degree, volume scorers/playmakers.

  8. Tsunami Says:

    Sorry, I was looking at above average teams, which INCLUDES the top teams.
    yes, if you choose only the top 5 defensive teams, which leads to a much smaller sample size, Bryant edges out James in Offensive Rating. So I apologize for my errant statement.

    However, his conclusion isn’t faulty. Players tend to lose efficiency as their usage goes up. So a player that has a higher usage rate but also a higher efficiency is a better player. That’s the point he’s making. To say it’s invalid because “they are both volume shooters” is a weak counter-argument at best.

    Also, cherry-picking splits against certain teams doesn’t really do much to Bryant’s resume. I could easily argue that Bryant doesn’t “bring it every night” by posting his splits against the Clippers last year. Despite having HCA in all 4 games, he shot 36% from the field and had 13 turnovers. Either that or he’s a volume shooter that relies on his jumper being on to be good.

    Case in point: he obliterated Houston because his mid-range jumper was on. He suffered against the Clips/Hawks/Net/Wizards because it was off.

    LeBron isn’t overly reliant on any one phase of his game. It’s why when his shot is off, his assist/turnover ratio improves along with his rebound rate. He steps up his game in other areas when his shot isn’t falling.

  9. Tsunami Says:

    Also, saying they “plummet” is basically indicative of how much better he is than Kobe against the rest of the league since his numbers really aren’t THAT much worse than Kobe’s against the Top 5 teams. His TS% is still higher against the top 5 teams, and of course his assist ratio is higher. The one area he is worse than Bryant is Turnover rate against the top 5 teams. Which seems to go hand in hand with Neil’s claim that he has to do so much more…

  10. Tsunami Says:

    I was referencing an elias study that I can’t find now. I might have been wrong to say his assist to turnover ration improved. But I know his production improved in other areas: steals/blocks/assists, something that neither Wade nor Kobe did when they were not hot from the field.

  11. xphoenix87 Says:

    As for the list as a whole, I pretty much agree on the top 7, though I’m not sure about Battier, simply because great perimeter defenders have much less impact than great defensive big men. I do love Battier, but 6 may be a touch too high.

    I love me some Delonte West, but the 12th best shooting guard? No way.

    We’ve already argued on the Vince Carter thing, so I won’t spent too much time there. Suffice it to say I would have him significantly higher on the list.

    Ben Gordon and Jason Terry should both be higher. No way can you convince me that Rip Hamilton, at this point in his career is a better player than either of them. J.R. Smith, maybe, but certainly not Rip or John Salmons.

    To have Eric Gordon ranked behind Courtney Lee is criminal. Nobody noticed him last year because he played for the Clippers, but Gordon is a special, special talent.

    The biggest problem I have is with Kevin Martin at #20. Sure, he’s a poor defender, but that’s a common thread with a lot of guys on this list. Among the league’s prolific scorers, Martin is one of the most efficient because of how well he shoots the ball and the ridiculous rate at which he gets to the free throw line. He’s often overlooked because he plays in Sacramento and his low FG% doesn’t look impressive, but few players score as efficiently as he does.

  12. Brandon Hoffman Says:

    Tsunami:

    * I stand by my assertion that Paine’s argument is faulty until proven otherwise. Again, we’re not talking about tendencies versus the league as a whole, this is a very select sample size.

    * I didn’t pick and choose arbitrarily. I selected the top five teams in defensive efficiency (Cleveland excluded, of course) because the formula fits my definition of the greatest player in the world.

    More later.

  13. Spurs Courtside » Blog Archive » Daily Spurs News: Blair Takes Over Says:

    [...] Eric Blasco of Baller Blogger ranks the NBA shooting guards. He has Manu Ginobili fifth behind Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Brandon Roy and Joe Johnson. [...]

  14. Erick Says:

    Come on, man. LeBron averaged 39/8/8 on 4against the regular season’s best defense. His main options didn’t “disappear” with Dwight Howard patrolling the paint and tall wing players hounding him on the perimeter.”

    What he tried to do after the first quarter is bull his way to the hoop the way he had over the first five games. Howard was late on many rotations those first five games and was stuck committing fouls reacting to LeBron instead of being in the right position.

    Game six comes, a lot of empty drives into traffic, a lot of long missed jump shots, and an uninspired offensive night for the Cavs.

    “How can you say any player is “complete”? Kobe Bryant can’t shoot 3s like Ray Allen. Shaquille Oneal could never hit FT like Mark Price, Michael Jordan couldn’t run the point like Magic.”

    It’s not about a player being perfect, it’s about a player being able to beat you from anywhere on the court against any defense. Kobe’s not perfect but he’s a threat from everywhere. Can he threes like Allen? No, but he can take games over from downtown if you let him, just like he can in the post, on the elbow, as a ball handler, moving without the ball, and on the defensive end.

    “Huh?
    When teams load up on him at the basket he finds open 3 point shooters. Remember 7 assists a night?”

    Or three misses out of his six layup/dunk attempts in Game 6.

    In a sense, for a player of LeBron (and Kobe’s) caliber, the numbers against awful teams don’t matter as much as the numbers against elite teams. Of course he’s so good that he’ll dominate the Kings, Knicks, Bucks, Heat, Hawks, and any other bad-to-average team in the league.

    Sacramento isn’t going to do a thing to keep the Cavs from winning a championship. Boston and San Antonio are teams Cleveland could meet deep in the postseason and how LeBron fares against those teams is a better indicator of how good he is than how he fares against lesser teams.

    The numbers in the article brought up by Brandon suggest that LeBron’s efficiency drops off against elite defenses. The qualitative analysis of LeBron’s game is that he has a tremendous paint game, a streaky long range jumper, and undeveloped moves in the midrange. Good teams will gameplan to that, and if they execute properly, LeBron won’t be as effective as he normally is.

  15. Erick Says:

    xphoenix

    Battier’s defense changes games to such a degree, and the players below him are flawed enough where I’d take my chances with Battier over any of those players. He changes games defensively with his ability to neutralize good scorers and he’s good enough to manufacture points offensively with is shooting ability and headiness.

    West can score, he can shoot, he can pass, he can defend, and he stepped up when the Cavs basically made him their second option late against the Magic. Excusing Carter (who we’ve gone back and forth with), The players behind West are either flaky, one-dimensional, young, or proven choke artists.

    Ben Gordon has won some playoff games with big shots, but he’s also lost playoff games with his horrendous defense and selfishness. Jason Terry is an undersized shooter who has a history of not making shots late in playoff games. I trust West a bit more than I trust those two.

    You may be right on Gordon. I only watched a fistful of Clippers games last year, but he’s a young, one-dimensional isolation scorer. Lee’s not a bad scorer himself and is a pretty good defensive player.

    I wonder how many of K-Mart’s free throws came during the fourth quarter of games against good teams? I wouldn’t be surprised if Martin’s numbers inflate because Sacramento’s constantly down big and opponents let off the gas pedal.

    The players above Martin are either better defenders, better playmakers, or better in the clutch.

    In “clutch” situations according to 82 games, Martin shot 37.5%. The only wings who shot worse are: Jamal Crawford, Joe Johnson, Kevin Durant, Corey Maggette, (shakes head) Hedo Turkoglu (but Martin doesn’t have the 50% game winning percentage), Matt Barnes, Tracy McGrady, Stephen Jackson, Randy Foye, Rudy Gay, Ron Artest, John Salmons (?), Andrei Kirilenko, and a bunch of low usage players.

    So Martin has two major strikes against him, counting his defense. He’s not physically strong so he doesn’t finish well (and his free throw numbers are among the most shocking stats in basketball), and doesn’t have a real effective right hand.

    I think Martin would be exposed somewhat if he played on a better team.

  16. Tsunami Says:

    Erick – you realize you basically made an entire point by pointing to one game in a 6 game series?

    You basically said that:

    -anything lebron does against teams that aren’t a threat to win the title means nothing.

    -anything that lebron does in game 1-5 against the best defense in the nba means nothing because you didn’t think Dwight Howard rotated well?

    Do you realize that Kobe Bryant’s series against Orlando wasn’t better than LeBron’s? No, it doesn’t matter, all that matters is that you don’t think he imposed his will in game 6.

    Also, as I said before, LeBron wins games in many more ways than just scoring. He’s a superior passer, rebounder, and defender than Kobe Bryant. He won games for the Cavs last year with chase-down blocks at one end leading to transition points at the other end. Oh wait, that means nothing, unless it came in game 6 of the ECF.

  17. john amaechi Says:

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  18. Today’s Celtics Links 10/13 « Flceltsfan’s Weblog Says:

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  19. Erick Says:

    Of course it doesn’t mean nothing. I didn’t drop LeBron below Carmelo Anthony or anything foolish. I used the example because it was the only playoff game LeBron played where the opposition had both the talent and the execution needed to give LeBron problems—how did he adjust? He didn’t. If a team’s center can’t execute simple defensive rotations, of course James is going to go crazy.

    And you do realize that while LeBron gets what…one chase down block a game, he had trouble staying in front of Rafer Alston (of all people) throughout the WCF last season.

    And despite the numbers, you’ll have a hard time convincing me that once Houston’s rotation settled down that there was a better defensive team in the game last season than the Rockets.

    Kobe Bryant isn’t going to have better numbers than LeBron when the Lakers have a more diverse gameplan than isolating him at the top of the key. LeBron’s numbers against the Magic are phenomenal. And when the Cavs needed him to hit jump shots, he came through late in Game 2 and at no other time in the series. That’s been a flaw for him, one that still hasn’t been corrected.

  20. Tsunami Says:

    Dude – you can’t just keep saying things that aren’t true.

    Thank you, first of all, for not dropping him below Carmelo Anthony – I’m glad you even brought that up.

    You say LeBron only hit jump shots late in game 2?

    Did you see the 3 he hit with 4 seconds left in game 4? Many people thought it was a more difficult shot than the 3 to win game 2, including the Cavs beat writer.

    Here’s part of the AP report from game 5:
    “James scored 21 points in the second half — 17 in the fourth quarter — and had a hand in Cleveland’s first 29 points in the final 12 minutes. The last player to post at least 37-14-12 in a playoff game was Oscar Robertson in 1963.”

    Here are a few of those 4th quarter shots:
    LeBron James makes 7-foot two point shot
    LeBron James makes 16-foot two point shot
    LeBron James makes 22-foot jumper

    Anyway, you’re revising history. LeBron was absolutely out of this world phenomenal against the Magic. If you are using that series (or any playoff series) as indication that he is “NOT” the best baller in the world then you might as well say that Al Harrington is a better player – because you aren’t watching the same games everyone else is.

    And finally, you said:
    “Kobe Bryant isn’t going to have better numbers than LeBron when the Lakers have a more diverse gameplan than isolating him at the top of the key.”

    Ok, here’s my problem with this statement. You can’t have it both ways. If you are implying that LeBron is going to have inflated numbers because every play is him in isolation, then you can’t possibly think that his efficiency would STILL be better than Kobe’s. If ALL HE IS DOING is isolating at the top of the key then he should be so easy to guard and there is no way he should be putting up the numbers he is with the efficiency he operates at.

    I can guarantee you that Kobe can’t do what LeBron does. He tried in 2006 and he was only able to shoot at 45% and his assist to turnover ratio was no where near what LeBron’s is.

    Kobe SHOULD have better efficiency than LeBron with all the weapons on the Lakers taking defenders away from the Bean. But he STILL doesn’t. You think Zydrunas Ilgauskas and Ben Wallace were attracting all that attention from Dwight Howard? Get serious. Had Mo Williams made a freaking shot against the Magic LeBron would have had a much easier time scoring – yet he STILL had out of this world numbers – because he’s the best player in the game.

  21. Brandon Hoffman Says:

    Tsunami:

    Allow me to play devil’s advocate once more.

    I don’t know what LeBron or Kobe’s player efficiency rating versus the Magic is, but a quick glance at their stats at NBA.com reveals Bryant averaged more steals, blocks, and less turnovers. Assists are comparable (8.0-7.4). While James averaged more points, rebounds, and shot a higher percentage from the field, although I’d wager that their true shooting percentages are fairly equal since Bryant was much more accurate from beyond the arc, and from the charity stripe.

    Looking at the series as a whole, it’s easy to conclude that LeBron “dominated” the Magic, and to a certain extent, that’s true. But his game logs paint a slightly different picture.

    James shot a sizzling 60.4 percent through the first two games, then connected on just 42.5 percent of his attempts in games 3-6.

  22. Erick Says:

    And the rest of LeBron’s jump shooting numbers:

    Game 1: 1-3 jump shots in the fourth quarter.
    Game 2: 1-3 same parameters.
    Game 3: 1-5
    Game 4: 2-7 4th plus OT
    Game 5: 3-5
    Game 6: 0-2

    That’s not a disturbing trend? 8-25? He hit the game winner in game 2, and made a tough three with the Cavs down four in Game 4 after missing two of his previous three three-pointers in overtime, plus committing three turnovers. The three came with just seconds left and the Cavs down four. A little too late.

    You don’t think those jump shooting numbers were factors in Cleveland’s series loss? Those numbers are also consistent with LeBron’s career, so it isn’t as if they’re a fluke. You don’t think that his inability to shoot hurt him vs. San Antonio and vs. Boston the year after?

    You’re kidding yourself if you think a good team won’t just pack the paint late and force LeBron to shoot? It’s not a coincidence that the one fourth quarter LeBron consistently shot well was the only fourth quarter in which the Cavs were able to break out offensively?

    Does Kobe have such an obvious weakness where teams can just gameplan him to a huge weakness?

    LeBron had seven turnovers in the fourth quarter and OT in their close game 4 loss. He missed 2-3 fourth quarter layups in Game 2. Game 3, two minutes to go, Cavs down 6, LeBron misses a three, misses two free throws, throws a bad pass. He had a missed free throw late in Game 1 that if made, regulation ends in a tie.

    These are points and possessions LeBron has left on the table that directly contributed to Cleveland’s series loss.

    Game 5 was an all-timer of a game, hands down, no question. He took over and played like a legend. No questions, no arguments, nothing. Where was that performance late in Game 4? Or in Game 3?

    What’s so out of this world about 7 endgame turnovers, missed layups, and critical missed free throws?

    And LeBron is less efficient, don’t the offensive ratings for Kobe and LeBron vs.Top 10 defenses prove that to a degree?

    LeBron still hasn’t developed into a player who doesn’t make mistakes late in ball games. His missed free throws are an awful habit he hasn’t fixed. His jump shot is still broken. He’s a supposed All-NBA defender, yet he’s hidden by defending Rafer Alston, and did a below average job checking him.

    LeBron still has holes to fix to be the best.

  23. Tsunami Says:

    Ok, Erick, I can play with numbers too.

    KOBE BRYANT 4th quarter Jump Shooting against the Magic:

    -1/4 Jumpers in 4hQ game 1. (25%)
    -3/6 Jumpers in 4thQ/OT game 2. (4 Turnovers) (50%)
    -1/3 Jumpers in 4th quarter of game 3. 2 Missed 3s with less than 24 seconds left that would have tied the game and 1 missed layup (not included). (33%)
    -4/12 Jumpers in 4thQ/OT game 4. (33%)
    -3/9 Jumpers in game 4thQ game 5. (33%)

    So, if 8/25 is a “disturbing trend”, how much better is 12/34? Especially when those are the MAJORITY of Kobe’s shots. LeBron augmented 32% jump shooting with loads of layups/dunks/FTA. Kobe? No, he shot jumpers at 35%.

    Let’s compare Game Scores between Kobe and LeBron against the Magic:

    Game 1:
    Kobe: 33.0, LeBron 44.7
    Game 2:
    Kobe: 17.8, LeBron 22.2
    Game 3:
    Kobe: 16.8, LeBron 31.3
    Game 4:
    Kobe: 20.3, LeBron 27.9
    Game 5:
    Kobe: 26.2, LeBron 33.3
    Game 6:
    LeBron 16.1

    So, LeBron destroys Kobe in Game Score against the exact same competition.

    Game 3 Recap:

    “Kobe Bryant, seeking a fourth title and his first since 2002, scored 31 points for the Lakers but the superstar had just 10 points in the second half and went only 4 of 15 from the field after the first quarter. He also missed five free throws, points that could have given the Lakers that 3-0 lead.”

    You said:
    “And LeBron is less efficient, don’t the offensive ratings for Kobe and LeBron vs.Top 10 defenses prove that to a degree?”

    I’m not exactly sure how to calculate Offensive Efficiency the Way BB-ref does it. But those charts that you and Brandon keep pointing to were from the regular season, and the data was taken on March 27.

    From that point forward, let’s look at how Kobe/LeBron shot against the teams that were top 10 in the NBA in opponent eFG%.

    Well, the Cavs played Orlando/San Antonio/Boston/Detroit after March 27 a total of 13 times.

    Kobe played Houston 8 times Denver 6 times and Orlando 5 times for a total of 19 times.

    LeBron shot 144/286 for slightly better than 50%
    Kobe shot 187/438 for slightly better than 43%

    (No doubt this one chart that you guys keep referencing as proof that Kobe destroys good defenses and Lebron suffers would be a lot different. I’d love to see the results of the entire season and not just up to March 27th.)

    Erick – your last post does nothing but prove my point. Does LeBron have Kobe’s mid-range game. Hell no. My very first post was “Why does he have to have a mid-range game to be the best?” You have successfully proven to me that he doesn’t have Kobe’s midrange game. I have proven that despite that, he preforms better.

    And you talk about game-planning? Why has LeBron hit more game winners and a higher percentage of game winners than Kobe over the last 3 years if he is so much easier to game plan for?

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