KOBE BRYANT 4th quarter Jump Shooting against the Magic:

-1/4 Jumpers in 4hQ game 1. (25%)
-3/6 Jumpers in 4thQ/OT game 2. (4 Turnovers) (50%)
-1/3 Jumpers in 4th quarter of game 3. 2 Missed 3s with less than 24 seconds left that would have tied the game and 1 missed layup (not included). (33%)
-4/12 Jumpers in 4thQ/OT game 4. (33%)
-3/9 Jumpers in game 4thQ game 5. (33%)

So, if 8/25 is a “disturbing trend”, how much better is 12/34? Especially when those are the MAJORITY of Kobe’s shots. LeBron augmented 32% jump shooting with loads of layups/dunks/FTA. Kobe? No, he shot jumpers at 35%.

Let’s compare Game Scores between Kobe and LeBron against the Magic:

Game 1:
Kobe: 33.0, LeBron 44.7
Game 2:
Kobe: 17.8, LeBron 22.2
Game 3:
Kobe: 16.8, LeBron 31.3
Game 4:
Kobe: 20.3, LeBron 27.9
Game 5:
Kobe: 26.2, LeBron 33.3
Game 6:
LeBron 16.1

So, LeBron destroys Kobe in Game Score against the exact same competition.

Game 3 Recap:

“Kobe Bryant, seeking a fourth title and his first since 2002, scored 31 points for the Lakers but the superstar had just 10 points in the second half and went only 4 of 15 from the field after the first quarter. He also missed five free throws, points that could have given the Lakers that 3-0 lead.”

You said:
“And LeBron is less efficient, don’t the offensive ratings for Kobe and LeBron vs.Top 10 defenses prove that to a degree?”

I’m not exactly sure how to calculate Offensive Efficiency the Way BB-ref does it. But those charts that you and Brandon keep pointing to were from the regular season, and the data was taken on March 27.

From that point forward, let’s look at how Kobe/LeBron shot against the teams that were top 10 in the NBA in opponent eFG%.

Well, the Cavs played Orlando/San Antonio/Boston/Detroit after March 27 a total of 13 times.

Kobe played Houston 8 times Denver 6 times and Orlando 5 times for a total of 19 times.

LeBron shot 144/286 for slightly better than 50%
Kobe shot 187/438 for slightly better than 43%

(No doubt this one chart that you guys keep referencing as proof that Kobe destroys good defenses and Lebron suffers would be a lot different. I’d love to see the results of the entire season and not just up to March 27th.)

Erick – your last post does nothing but prove my point. Does LeBron have Kobe’s mid-range game. Hell no. My very first post was “Why does he have to have a mid-range game to be the best?” You have successfully proven to me that he doesn’t have Kobe’s midrange game. I have proven that despite that, he preforms better.

And you talk about game-planning? Why has LeBron hit more game winners and a higher percentage of game winners than Kobe over the last 3 years if he is so much easier to game plan for?

Game 1: 1-3 jump shots in the fourth quarter.
Game 2: 1-3 same parameters.
Game 3: 1-5
Game 4: 2-7 4th plus OT
Game 5: 3-5
Game 6: 0-2

That’s not a disturbing trend? 8-25? He hit the game winner in game 2, and made a tough three with the Cavs down four in Game 4 after missing two of his previous three three-pointers in overtime, plus committing three turnovers. The three came with just seconds left and the Cavs down four. A little too late.

You don’t think those jump shooting numbers were factors in Cleveland’s series loss? Those numbers are also consistent with LeBron’s career, so it isn’t as if they’re a fluke. You don’t think that his inability to shoot hurt him vs. San Antonio and vs. Boston the year after?

You’re kidding yourself if you think a good team won’t just pack the paint late and force LeBron to shoot? It’s not a coincidence that the one fourth quarter LeBron consistently shot well was the only fourth quarter in which the Cavs were able to break out offensively?

Does Kobe have such an obvious weakness where teams can just gameplan him to a huge weakness?

LeBron had seven turnovers in the fourth quarter and OT in their close game 4 loss. He missed 2-3 fourth quarter layups in Game 2. Game 3, two minutes to go, Cavs down 6, LeBron misses a three, misses two free throws, throws a bad pass. He had a missed free throw late in Game 1 that if made, regulation ends in a tie.

These are points and possessions LeBron has left on the table that directly contributed to Cleveland’s series loss.

Game 5 was an all-timer of a game, hands down, no question. He took over and played like a legend. No questions, no arguments, nothing. Where was that performance late in Game 4? Or in Game 3?

What’s so out of this world about 7 endgame turnovers, missed layups, and critical missed free throws?

And LeBron is less efficient, don’t the offensive ratings for Kobe and LeBron vs.Top 10 defenses prove that to a degree?

LeBron still hasn’t developed into a player who doesn’t make mistakes late in ball games. His missed free throws are an awful habit he hasn’t fixed. His jump shot is still broken. He’s a supposed All-NBA defender, yet he’s hidden by defending Rafer Alston, and did a below average job checking him.

LeBron still has holes to fix to be the best.

Allow me to play devil’s advocate once more.

I don’t know what LeBron or Kobe’s player efficiency rating versus the Magic is, but a quick glance at their stats at NBA.com reveals Bryant averaged more steals, blocks, and less turnovers. Assists are comparable (8.0-7.4). While James averaged more points, rebounds, and shot a higher percentage from the field, although I’d wager that their true shooting percentages are fairly equal since Bryant was much more accurate from beyond the arc, and from the charity stripe.

Looking at the series as a whole, it’s easy to conclude that LeBron “dominated” the Magic, and to a certain extent, that’s true. But his game logs paint a slightly different picture.

James shot a sizzling 60.4 percent through the first two games, then connected on just 42.5 percent of his attempts in games 3-6.

Thank you, first of all, for not dropping him below Carmelo Anthony – I’m glad you even brought that up.

You say LeBron only hit jump shots late in game 2?

Did you see the 3 he hit with 4 seconds left in game 4? Many people thought it was a more difficult shot than the 3 to win game 2, including the Cavs beat writer.

Here’s part of the AP report from game 5:
“James scored 21 points in the second half — 17 in the fourth quarter — and had a hand in Cleveland’s first 29 points in the final 12 minutes. The last player to post at least 37-14-12 in a playoff game was Oscar Robertson in 1963.”

Here are a few of those 4th quarter shots:
LeBron James makes 7-foot two point shot
LeBron James makes 16-foot two point shot
LeBron James makes 22-foot jumper

Anyway, you’re revising history. LeBron was absolutely out of this world phenomenal against the Magic. If you are using that series (or any playoff series) as indication that he is “NOT” the best baller in the world then you might as well say that Al Harrington is a better player – because you aren’t watching the same games everyone else is.

And finally, you said:
“Kobe Bryant isn’t going to have better numbers than LeBron when the Lakers have a more diverse gameplan than isolating him at the top of the key.”

Ok, here’s my problem with this statement. You can’t have it both ways. If you are implying that LeBron is going to have inflated numbers because every play is him in isolation, then you can’t possibly think that his efficiency would STILL be better than Kobe’s. If ALL HE IS DOING is isolating at the top of the key then he should be so easy to guard and there is no way he should be putting up the numbers he is with the efficiency he operates at.

I can guarantee you that Kobe can’t do what LeBron does. He tried in 2006 and he was only able to shoot at 45% and his assist to turnover ratio was no where near what LeBron’s is.

Kobe SHOULD have better efficiency than LeBron with all the weapons on the Lakers taking defenders away from the Bean. But he STILL doesn’t. You think Zydrunas Ilgauskas and Ben Wallace were attracting all that attention from Dwight Howard? Get serious. Had Mo Williams made a freaking shot against the Magic LeBron would have had a much easier time scoring – yet he STILL had out of this world numbers – because he’s the best player in the game.

And you do realize that while LeBron gets what…one chase down block a game, he had trouble staying in front of Rafer Alston (of all people) throughout the WCF last season.

And despite the numbers, you’ll have a hard time convincing me that once Houston’s rotation settled down that there was a better defensive team in the game last season than the Rockets.

Kobe Bryant isn’t going to have better numbers than LeBron when the Lakers have a more diverse gameplan than isolating him at the top of the key. LeBron’s numbers against the Magic are phenomenal. And when the Cavs needed him to hit jump shots, he came through late in Game 2 and at no other time in the series. That’s been a flaw for him, one that still hasn’t been corrected.

You basically said that:

-anything lebron does against teams that aren’t a threat to win the title means nothing.

-anything that lebron does in game 1-5 against the best defense in the nba means nothing because you didn’t think Dwight Howard rotated well?

Do you realize that Kobe Bryant’s series against Orlando wasn’t better than LeBron’s? No, it doesn’t matter, all that matters is that you don’t think he imposed his will in game 6.

Also, as I said before, LeBron wins games in many more ways than just scoring. He’s a superior passer, rebounder, and defender than Kobe Bryant. He won games for the Cavs last year with chase-down blocks at one end leading to transition points at the other end. Oh wait, that means nothing, unless it came in game 6 of the ECF.

Battier’s defense changes games to such a degree, and the players below him are flawed enough where I’d take my chances with Battier over any of those players. He changes games defensively with his ability to neutralize good scorers and he’s good enough to manufacture points offensively with is shooting ability and headiness.

West can score, he can shoot, he can pass, he can defend, and he stepped up when the Cavs basically made him their second option late against the Magic. Excusing Carter (who we’ve gone back and forth with), The players behind West are either flaky, one-dimensional, young, or proven choke artists.

Ben Gordon has won some playoff games with big shots, but he’s also lost playoff games with his horrendous defense and selfishness. Jason Terry is an undersized shooter who has a history of not making shots late in playoff games. I trust West a bit more than I trust those two.

You may be right on Gordon. I only watched a fistful of Clippers games last year, but he’s a young, one-dimensional isolation scorer. Lee’s not a bad scorer himself and is a pretty good defensive player.

I wonder how many of K-Mart’s free throws came during the fourth quarter of games against good teams? I wouldn’t be surprised if Martin’s numbers inflate because Sacramento’s constantly down big and opponents let off the gas pedal.

The players above Martin are either better defenders, better playmakers, or better in the clutch.

In “clutch” situations according to 82 games, Martin shot 37.5%. The only wings who shot worse are: Jamal Crawford, Joe Johnson, Kevin Durant, Corey Maggette, (shakes head) Hedo Turkoglu (but Martin doesn’t have the 50% game winning percentage), Matt Barnes, Tracy McGrady, Stephen Jackson, Randy Foye, Rudy Gay, Ron Artest, John Salmons (?), Andrei Kirilenko, and a bunch of low usage players.

So Martin has two major strikes against him, counting his defense. He’s not physically strong so he doesn’t finish well (and his free throw numbers are among the most shocking stats in basketball), and doesn’t have a real effective right hand.

I think Martin would be exposed somewhat if he played on a better team.

What he tried to do after the first quarter is bull his way to the hoop the way he had over the first five games. Howard was late on many rotations those first five games and was stuck committing fouls reacting to LeBron instead of being in the right position.

Game six comes, a lot of empty drives into traffic, a lot of long missed jump shots, and an uninspired offensive night for the Cavs.

“How can you say any player is “complete”? Kobe Bryant can’t shoot 3s like Ray Allen. Shaquille Oneal could never hit FT like Mark Price, Michael Jordan couldn’t run the point like Magic.”

It’s not about a player being perfect, it’s about a player being able to beat you from anywhere on the court against any defense. Kobe’s not perfect but he’s a threat from everywhere. Can he threes like Allen? No, but he can take games over from downtown if you let him, just like he can in the post, on the elbow, as a ball handler, moving without the ball, and on the defensive end.

“Huh?
When teams load up on him at the basket he finds open 3 point shooters. Remember 7 assists a night?”

Or three misses out of his six layup/dunk attempts in Game 6.

In a sense, for a player of LeBron (and Kobe’s) caliber, the numbers against awful teams don’t matter as much as the numbers against elite teams. Of course he’s so good that he’ll dominate the Kings, Knicks, Bucks, Heat, Hawks, and any other bad-to-average team in the league.

Sacramento isn’t going to do a thing to keep the Cavs from winning a championship. Boston and San Antonio are teams Cleveland could meet deep in the postseason and how LeBron fares against those teams is a better indicator of how good he is than how he fares against lesser teams.

The numbers in the article brought up by Brandon suggest that LeBron’s efficiency drops off against elite defenses. The qualitative analysis of LeBron’s game is that he has a tremendous paint game, a streaky long range jumper, and undeveloped moves in the midrange. Good teams will gameplan to that, and if they execute properly, LeBron won’t be as effective as he normally is.

* I stand by my assertion that Paine’s argument is faulty until proven otherwise. Again, we’re not talking about tendencies versus the league as a whole, this is a very select sample size.

* I didn’t pick and choose arbitrarily. I selected the top five teams in defensive efficiency (Cleveland excluded, of course) because the formula fits my definition of the greatest player in the world.

More later.

I love me some Delonte West, but the 12th best shooting guard? No way.

We’ve already argued on the Vince Carter thing, so I won’t spent too much time there. Suffice it to say I would have him significantly higher on the list.

Ben Gordon and Jason Terry should both be higher. No way can you convince me that Rip Hamilton, at this point in his career is a better player than either of them. J.R. Smith, maybe, but certainly not Rip or John Salmons.

To have Eric Gordon ranked behind Courtney Lee is criminal. Nobody noticed him last year because he played for the Clippers, but Gordon is a special, special talent.

The biggest problem I have is with Kevin Martin at #20. Sure, he’s a poor defender, but that’s a common thread with a lot of guys on this list. Among the league’s prolific scorers, Martin is one of the most efficient because of how well he shoots the ball and the ridiculous rate at which he gets to the free throw line. He’s often overlooked because he plays in Sacramento and his low FG% doesn’t look impressive, but few players score as efficiently as he does.